Queenless hive for months

[thibault]

Hi everyone,
this is a weird one, I have one hive where the queen died in September 2016, they tried to raise one as I remember seeing a queen cup with egg and royal jelly, then I guess they failed as it was too late.
I did an inspection last weekend and there is nothing in this hive except for pollen and honey, the hive is a jumbo national so 11 frames of honey and pollen, some empty cells as well. There is no brood, no drone cells, no multiple eggs in one cell, so that would mean there is no laying worker. Have you ever heard of a hive that stays for month without queen nor laying workers? The bees do still cover about 8 frames.
I am a bit tempted to buy an imported mated queen before they start to have laying workers in there, what do you think guys?
thanks

 

[MartinL]

Are you sure she died?

Is/was she marked?

Did you find a body???

 

[thibault]

Are you sure she died?

Is/was she marked?

Did you find a body???

yes MartinL, found the body
would it be possible that they have a virgin queen in there, but I found them quite aggressive though, they were not like that when they had the queen (carnolian)

 

[Poly Hive]

If you have another hive pop in a test frame.

PH

 

[thibault]

If you have another hive pop in a test frame.

PH

I had thought of doing this as I have a 14x12 poly nuc (5 frames), they are strong but I don't feel like taking out a full 14x12 brood frame as I have added a normal brood box (not 14x12) on top last week. I feel its a bit early to deprive them of one full jumbo frame of brood in the middle of the build up, what would you advise?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I had thought of doing this as I have a 14x12 poly nuc (5 frames), they are strong but I don't feel like taking out a full 14x12 brood frame as I have added a normal brood box (not 14x12) on top last week. I feel its a bit early to deprive them of one full jumbo frame of brood in the middle of the build up, what would you advise?

Cutting a section of eggs works just as well.
Borrow a cake cutter, cut a section out of a frame inthe queen less hive. Replace with a similar section cut from the donor hive. Just squash the wax together in a couple of places. The bees in the donor hive will replace the comb you cut out in a day

 

[Poly Hive]

Hang on here. You have added a full brood box to a unit on five frames of brood? I would suggest you are fully two weeks ahead of yourself and not doing them much good.

You can offer a couple of grafts if you want to test, or if using a full frame it only needs a couple of days to tell if they are queenless or not and then put it back to the doner unit.

PH

 

[pargyle]

Oddly enough .. One of my colonies has not started brooding yet .. plenty of stores, cells cleaned, fair amount of bees, no sign of any disease, low varroa drop - can't see the queen. So, I'm in a similar situation .. was not the strongest layer last season although the bees are good honey producers and nice to handle. There's no sign of laying workers - not an egg of any sort in sight ! They've come through winter OK so I'm reluctant to let them dwindle without doing anything so I was going to put a few eggs from another colony in there and see what happens. If they build queen cells then I'll know for certain - but raising a queen (who will be emerging about 16th April) is going to be just a tad early for what I would like for getting her mated. April is notorious for rainy days. So I'm toying with putting in a test patch but if they make queen cells knocking them down and either making them start again a bit later on or begging ot buying a mated queen for them.

Not intending a thread hijack - just thought it was a bit similar to where I am.

Of course, the little beggar might just suddenly decide she's there and wants to lay - and then ... oh well ... just keeps you thinking doesn't it ?

 

[Poly Hive]

Another test frame needed then....not at all uncommon in Spring.

PH

 

[pargyle]

Hang on here. You have added a full brood box to a unit on five frames of brood? I would suggest you are fully two weeks ahead of yourself and not doing them much good. .

PH

Yeh .. was just thinking that as well ... I tend to keep the Nuc going until it is bursting at the seams and then just transfer the frames and bees to a full size box. A big empty box on on top of a Nuc is not going to help them build up. Better to get rid of the nuc and just move the frames and bees in entirety.

 

[thibault]

Hang on here. You have added a full brood box to a unit on five frames of brood? I would suggest you are fully two weeks ahead of yourself and not doing them much good.

You can offer a couple of grafts if you want to test, or if using a full frame it only needs a couple of days to tell if they are queenless or not and then put it back to the doner unit.

PH

it's a 5 frames nuc, 14x12, full of bees and capped brood, and I have added a 5 frames brood box for nuc on top, but smaller frames as this a normal deep size box, not a jumbo, there is already plenty of bees in that brood box and they are building comb in it.
Thanks for the grafting idea, did not think about it, tomorrow is apparently going to be a nice day (20 degrees), I am going to give it a try.

 

[thibault]

Cutting a section of eggs works just as well.
Borrow a cake cutter, cut a section out of a frame inthe queen less hive. Replace with a similar section cut from the donor hive. Just squash the wax together in a couple of places. The bees in the donor hive will replace the comb you cut out in a day

brilliant idea, sounds good to me, gonna try that tomorrow
thank you for the help

 

[pargyle]

it's a 5 frames nuc, 14x12, full of bees and capped brood, and I have added a 5 frames brood box for nuc on top, but smaller frames as this a normal deep size box, not a jumbo, there is already plenty of bees in that brood box and they are building comb in it.

Ah- right ... So where is this plan going then ? You are going to end up with brood on two sizes of frame in two nucs, one on top of the other ?

Are you trying to move away from 14 x 12 format to standard national or are you just a masochist ?

Sooner or later you should try and end up with one size of frames ... mixing up two frame sizes is going to give you problems eventually. Not so bad going from standard national to 14 x 12 - going the other way is a bit wasteful.

 

[thibault]

Ah- right ... So where is this plan going then ? You are going to end up with brood on two sizes of frame in two nucs, one on top of the other ?

Are you trying to move away from 14 x 12 format to standard national or are you just a masochist ?

Sooner or later you should try and end up with one size of frames ... mixing up two frame sizes is going to give you problems eventually. Not so bad going from standard national to 14 x 12 - going the other way is a bit wasteful.

lol Pargyle, yes I forgot to mention that indeed I want to move away from 14x12
What about your colony, are you gonna do the same test? (cut some comb with eggs and put it in the hive which is not raising brood)

 

[Poly Hive]

If it was my hive I would take off that brood box as it is hindering the colony.

When they are up to 8 frames of brood THEN if the weather is good put the brood box back on and make sure there is insulation on top.

After a few days check the queen is up there and put the excluder on.

PH

 

[Hivemaker.]

When they are up to 8 frames of brood THEN if the weather is good put the brood box back on and make sure there is insulation on top.

They couldn't get up to eight frames of brood in a five frame nuc box.

 

[Poly Hive]

Damn never noticed the nuc... OOOPS

PH

 

[REDWOOD]

Oddly enough .. One of my colonies has not started brooding yet .. plenty of stores, cells cleaned, fair amount of bees, no sign of any disease, low varroa drop - can't see the queen. So, I'm in a similar situation .. was not the strongest layer last season although the bees are good honey producers and nice to handle. There's no sign of laying workers - not an egg of any sort in sight ! They've come through winter OK so I'm reluctant to let them dwindle without doing anything so I was going to put a few eggs from another colony in there and see what happens. If they build queen cells then I'll know for certain - but raising a queen (who will be emerging about 16th April) is going to be just a tad early for what I would like for getting her mated. April is notorious for rainy days. So I'm toying with putting in a test patch but if they make queen cells knocking them down and either making them start again a bit later on or begging ot buying a mated queen for them.

Not intending a thread hijack - just thought it was a bit similar to where I am.

Of course, the little beggar might just suddenly decide she's there and wants to lay - and then ... oh well ... just keeps you thinking doesn't it ?

I doubt you will have any winter bees left by then and not to mention drones. The Southern Hemisphere probably has queens for sale


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[pargyle]

I doubt you will have any winter bees left by then and not to mention drones. The Southern Hemisphere probably has queens for sale


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The odd thing is that there are plenty of bees in there - no drone layers so far ... It's a bit dreek down here today or I would have put a test patch in this afternoon but it looks a bit better tomorrow so I will have a go then. It's weird as they are not agressive or aimless like you sometimes get when they are queenless ... might just be a late starter ...? Don't really want an imported queen but if they don't get going I can always combine with one of the others and then split later on when there's a better chance of drones about.

 

[MuswellMetro]

They couldn't get up to eight frames of brood in a five frame nuc box.

want a bet? i have seen 5 DN2+2 DN1 frame all without spacers in an untrained beginners five frame nuc box