Queenless hive for months

[thibault]

Welll ... that went well ... NOT !! Got home from work and it had clouded over - very humid down here and muggy. Should have known better ... bees quite busy but more coming home than going out. Got suited up and opened the hive I reckoned would be a good donor and as soon as I got the crown board off they were all over me ... not stinging but pinging and generally not happy. Hadn't bothered with the smoker as it was going to be one frame out. quick cut and back in .. No chance ... Could barely see what I was doing for the bees in the air and pinging the veil. Sometimes you just have to listen to them ... gave up and shut them down ... got away without any stings and at least they did not follow me. See what it's like tomorrow.

Hi ho ...

for me it was ok, job done, nice day but a bit cloudy (19 degrees), I did find the cutting part a bit messy though, no experience I guess... So now they have few eggs in there, let's see what they do with them.
I noticed something, maybe i am biased but after few minutes I had closed the hive, the bees on the landing board looked excited, moving faster... usually they would just look so sluggish, would it be the effect of the little patch of brood?
By the way, I definitely saw the bees' sticking their butt in the air when I removed the crown board, quite a few of them and fanning, so probably queenless.

 

[pargyle]

Lot better tonight .. Bit worried because it was 6.45pm before I started. Nice warm evening the bees were very calm compared to yesterday ... Still no sign of eggs or brood in the 'queenless' colony - but they are still showing no other signs of being queenless !

Opened up the donor hive ... going through looking for some eggs and new brood and I found lots of it ... But what I had forgotten was that I'd given them a super frame of uncapped honey when I was feeding them up in the autumn afnd I'd left the frame in there ! Sometimes you get lucky as they had cleaned the frame out and there was a lovely patch of new brood and eggs .... so that came out and went into the other hive and a spare drawn out frame has replace it ...

So ... job done - should know by next Wednesday (next chance I will have to get in there) whether they are going to do something with the eggs I've given them ...

Wait and see time - then - more decisions !!

 

[colinc]

Lot better tonight .. Bit worried because it was 6.45pm before I started. Nice warm evening the bees were very calm compared to yesterday ... Still no sign of eggs or brood in the 'queenless' colony - but they are still showing no other signs of being queenless !

Opened up the donor hive ... going through looking for some eggs and new brood and I found lots of it ... But what I had forgotten was that I'd given them a super frame of uncapped honey when I was feeding them up in the autumn afnd I'd left the frame in there ! Sometimes you get lucky as they had cleaned the frame out and there was a lovely patch of new brood and eggs .... so that came out and went into the other hive and a spare drawn out frame has replace it ...

So ... job done - should know by next Wednesday (next chance I will have to get in there) whether they are going to do something with the eggs I've given them ...

Wait and see time - then - more decisions !!

I predict success, no bears involved...!


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[thibault]

So ... job done - should know by next Wednesday (next chance I will have to get in there) whether they are going to do something with the eggs I've given them ...

Wait and see time - then - more decisions !!

I am so tempted to have a look tomorrow or Sunday if weather allows, shall I?

 

[pargyle]

I predict success, no bears involved...!

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I live in hope ... as luck would have it I found a square cookie cutter in the bee box .. I think I bought it on a whim thinking it would do for cut comb or chunk honey and forgot I had it. So the bear went back to the kitchen utensils drawer and I was all set to stamp out a bit of comb as planned ... thenI got lucky !

 

[Erichalfbee]

Fingers crossed P

 

[colinc]

Haha leave them to it Thibault and good luck to you both. I am on countdown to see if I have helped or hindered with MAQS. Not happy should have capes last autumn but sugar roll was useless didn't see a single mite on numerous samples, but they were there.
Now DWV signs and visible varroa which weren't last summer. Gutted feel so guilty.


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[thibault]

Haha leave them to it Thibault and good luck to you both. I am on countdown to see if I have helped or hindered with MAQS. Not happy should have capes last autumn but sugar roll was useless didn't see a single mite on numerous samples, but they were there.
Now DWV signs and visible varroa which weren't last summer. Gutted feel so guilty.


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good luck to you for the varroa issue.
I couldn't help it, just had a very quick look, they have started a queen cup, what should I do, let them raise the queen, and hopefully she'll mate beginning of May (risky maybe) or just buy a queen, available from the week starting 10/04 ?

 

[Hivemaker.]

good luck to you for the varroa issue.
I couldn't help it, just had a very quick look, they have started a queen cup, what should I do, let them raise the queen

Yes, providing the egg was laid by a fertile queen and not a laying worker.

 

[pargyle]

good luck to you for the varroa issue.
I couldn't help it, just had a very quick look, they have started a queen cup, what should I do, let them raise the queen, and hopefully she'll mate beginning of May (risky maybe) or just buy a queen, available from the week starting 10/04 ?

Decisions decisions ... Me .. I'd leave them to it .. if they make a queen she will be out on a mating flight in three weeks and you will have brood/eggs (or not) by the end of April when you still have time to beg, buy or borrow a queen - if you have any bees left by then ... or indeed, combine what's left with your other hive and start off a new colony in a nuc with a frame of eggs and brood, a couple of cups full of bees and a frame of stores .. the boosting of your prime colony will help your honey crop and you will have a second colony on the go building up for next year.

Lots of options ....

 

[colinc]

good luck to you for the varroa issue.

I couldn't help it, just had a very quick look, they have started a queen cup, what should I do, let them raise the queen, and hopefully she'll mate beginning of May (risky maybe) or just buy a queen, available from the week starting 10/04 ?

I'm probably not the best person to ask I was laughing at Pargyle regarding the bear thread, if the queen cup is in the cut comb of the donor patch you would assume she is going to be a "normal" queen not progeny of the drone layer??? Not a problem I have had yet. Even if she is poor she is better than none and will keep the colony happier than queenless. If you get a bad pattern then you requeening later when the supply of mated queens is more secure.

Good luck to you too with this.


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[thibault]

Decisions decisions ... Me .. I'd leave them to it .. if they make a queen she will be out on a mating flight in three weeks and you will have brood/eggs (or not) by the end of April when you still have time to beg, buy or borrow a queen - if you have any bees left by then ... or indeed, combine what's left with your other hive and start off a new colony in a nuc with a frame of eggs and brood, a couple of cups full of bees and a frame of stores .. the boosting of your prime colony will help your honey crop and you will have a second colony on the go building up for next year.

Lots of options ....

thank you for these precious advice, so hard to choose though, I like the second option, but scared to combine the nuc with the big hive (never done it before), any risk of fighting between the bees or queen getting killed?
I have read that being queenless for months and smoking them a lot while doing the transfer should do the trick.
Don't see how to implement the newspaper method with a 14x12 brood box as I don't have another 14x12 brood box, and I am as well moving away from it, all my new equipment is standard national.
As well is it still too cold to do this, pulling out frames of brood and transferring them...?

 

[thibault]

I'm probably not the best person to ask I was laughing at Pargyle regarding the bear thread, if the queen cup is in the cut comb of the donor patch you would assume she is going to be a "normal" queen not progeny of the drone layer??? Not a problem I have had yet. Even if she is poor she is better than none and will keep the colony happier than queenless. If you get a bad pattern then you requeening later when the supply of mated queens is more secure.

Good luck to you too with this.


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thanks, sounds good as well

 

[Levitt53]

Pargyle and thibault how are your hives? I'm putting a test frame in my queenless hive tomorrow (assuming no eggs have appeared this week of course).

 

[Gilberdyke John]

thank you for these precious advice, so hard to choose though, I like the second option, but scared to combine the nuc with the big hive (never done it before), any risk of fighting between the bees or queen getting killed?
I have read that being queenless for months and smoking them a lot while doing the transfer should do the trick.
Don't see how to implement the newspaper method with a 14x12 brood box as I don't have another 14x12 brood box, and I am as well moving away from it, all my new equipment is standard national.
As well is it still too cold to do this, pulling out frames of brood and transferring them...?

Most unites through newspaper seem to be successful. I've never had one fail yet. Your difficulty is in sitting the different sizes of box together but an adapter board the size of the larger box with a hole in it almost the size of the smaller box works ok for me. If the larger box goes on top you need to support for stability against toppling.
Are you making a sensible move by switching away from 14 x 12? I find The extra space works well for prolific queens. The weight of a full frame 14 x 12 is a comforting experience and going into winter with full frames of stores gives peace of mind.

 

[pargyle]

Pargyle and thibault how are your hives? I'm putting a test frame in my queenless hive tomorrow (assuming no eggs have appeared this week of course).

Welll ... you gotta laugh ... the frame with eggs and brood on it that I donated to my apparently queenless hive ... put it in there last weekend - I could not get to look on Wednesday as planned but managed to inspect it today ...

No sign of a queen cell ... just a very nice patch of capped brood ... DRONE BROOD !!!! Can you believe it ... I gave them a frame that appears to have had just drone eggs and brood .... Dohhh ... So - how can you tell drone eggs from worker eggs ? I know ... look up their jeans ...

Anyway, I've given them another frame with eggs and larvae and we'll see what they do with it ... they obviously know what to do as they capped the drone brood very nicely ... still lots of bees in there and they are packing in pollen and honey but apart from some nicely cleaned and polished cells no sign of laying workers or a queen laying anything...

Blasted bees ... just when you think you know what you are doing ... they find a new trick !

 

[Tremyfro]

Welll ... you gotta laugh ... the frame with eggs and brood on it that I donated to my apparently queenless hive ... put it in there last weekend - I could not get to look on Wednesday as planned but managed to inspect it today ...

No sign of a queen cell ... just a very nice patch of capped brood ... DRONE BROOD !!!! Can you believe it ... I gave them a frame that appears to have had just drone eggs and brood .... Dohhh ... So - how can you tell drone eggs from worker eggs ? I know ... look up their jeans ...

Anyway, I've given them another frame with eggs and larvae and we'll see what they do with it ... they obviously know what to do as they capped the drone brood very nicely ... still lots of bees in there and they are packing in pollen and honey but apart from some nicely cleaned and polished cells no sign of laying workers or a queen laying anything...

Blasted bees ... just when you think you know what you are doing ... they find a new trick !

Ha ha...you made me spit out my tea!
Such a thing could only happen to a beekeeper!
I added a frame of brood to an apparently queenless hive a couple of days ago. However, they were definitely showing signs of queenlessness. Very buzzy and noisy when the hive was opened...no brood...whereas there had been a small patch a few weeks before. All very strange. I will be taking a peak today if the weather is good.... to see if they have made a queen cell or not.

 

[Levitt53]

Welll ... you gotta laugh ... the frame with eggs and brood on it that I donated to my apparently queenless hive ... put it in there last weekend - I could not get to look on Wednesday as planned but managed to inspect it today ...

No sign of a queen cell ... just a very nice patch of capped brood ... DRONE BROOD !!!! Can you believe it ... I gave them a frame that appears to have had just drone eggs and brood .... Dohhh ... So - how can you tell drone eggs from worker eggs ? I know ... look up their jeans ...

Anyway, I've given them another frame with eggs and larvae and we'll see what they do with it ... they obviously know what to do as they capped the drone brood very nicely ... still lots of bees in there and they are packing in pollen and honey but apart from some nicely cleaned and polished cells no sign of laying workers or a queen laying anything...

Blasted bees ... just when you think you know what you are doing ... they find a new trick !

Blimey I never would have thought about that. I know how you feel though. I had plans for the year as everyone said I needed to have. First inspection and that is all out of the window.

I put a frame in mine on Sunday. It had lots of sealed worker brood as well so hopefully the eggs I saw were also workers. I'm not sure when I'll get a chance to look as the forecast is not great but we'll see. Everything crossed here.

 

[Erichalfbee]

So - how can you tell drone eggs from worker eggs ? I know ... look up their jeans ...

!

By the time the tiny larva has hatched the bees are building up the cell walls but eggs? Dunno!

 

[Beefriendly]

By the time the tiny larva has hatched the bees are building up the cell walls but eggs? Dunno!

Usually the size of the cell the egg is in tells you which is which. In a normal hive drone eggs are laid in larger cells. Unless you have a drone laying queen laying drone eggs in worker sized cells.
You can see in this picture the unoccupied drone sized cells (to the left) are bigger than the worker cells (on the right).