Queenless after MAQs

[beeno]

Hi Jimmys Mum,
Thank you very much for reporting on your experience with MAQs. We have had reports already of larvae being thrown out following application of said substance. Furthermore, depending on which text one reads all larvae are fed Royal Jelly for two or three days. Thus if we say three days and some say they seal a QC in 8 days then it would only take the bees two days to seal a QC in an emergency situation!

 

[itma]

no - trying to explain that in an emergency it takes <7 days to make and seal a queen cell.

Which is true, but if Q was laying normally until 'something happened' 7 days ago (or less), there should be a fair amount of open brood. But there is none whatsoever.

 

[Tom Bick]

I would say something happened 5 days before the MAQs went on.

 

[Pete D]

Pete D,

Do your time line again. Emergency queen cells are not all drawn on eggs just laid. 3 day old larvae are soon capped as queens.

RAB

Yes I can see that with emergency cells, but no open brood at all means no eggs 7 days previously so stopped laying prior to Maqs.
Ensure queen less before introducing any new queen.

 

[Swarm]

Too much conclusion jumping.

 

[Jimmys Mum]

Jimmy's Mum, are they emergency or supersedure cells you are seeing? They look quite different usually and might answer MAQ responsible or coincidental with established supersedure debate. If the latter 2012 queen might still be there. Might be worth a look in a few days to see if there are newly laid eggs? You really need to know if queenless before trying to introduce a new queen.

Hi Dick, I'm not sure if I've ever seen true supercedure cells in my colonies, so I'm not really able to reliably answer that question! One day I aspire to see perfect supercedure...... But, the queen cells referred to today seemed to be much shorter and stumpier looking than the swarm cells which I've been seeing in all of my three original colonies in June/July this year. They were also on the face of the brood area, elongated from existing worker cells. On the question of supercedure, this particular queen did swarm in June, and was caught and re-hived. I understand that swarmed queens are often superceded later in the season, so that would give weight to the supercedure vs emergency cells scenario.

I'm almost certain that the original 2012 queen is not there. She is very distinct with a huge yellow mark and I always spot her on the frame almost immediately. But I take the point about ensuring queenlessness before introducing a mated queen. Thanks to all who made this point.

Is there any relevance to the fact that there was no open brood seen today in either of the hives treated with MAQS? Even the one that now has eggs, and presumably therefore still queenright. If something happened 7+ days ago to stop a queen laying then it happened in both my MAQS treated hives. Hence my enquiring about the possibility of eggs and small larvae being removed in the first 48hrs. I did not see this myself but see that Beeno refers to larvae removal in post #21. But hey, .......it could just as likely be down to a change in weather putting queens off lay I suppose. I recall it being about the time that temperatures dipped across the country.

As I said before I may well use MAQS again, should a thymol treatment be tricky in terms of temperature range or late flows or indicators of an unexpectedly high varroa load mid season.

I guess, for me, Thymol has just been around for a lot longer and this happening, although probably coincidence as others have gently (thank you guys ) suggested, it's just knocked my own personal confidence a bit.

It will be very interesting to continue to hear others MAQS experiences over the coming weeks in order to get a better picture of how they are working out.

Thanks for all the responses, they've certainly got me thinking and looking more closely at dates and possible scenarios ..... and that's what learning (for me anyway) is all about!
JM

 

[Tom Bick]

Jimmys Mum you inspected this hive 5 days before the MAQS used I would suggest something happened to the queen during this inspection. You may have emergency queens emerging any day now if I am right.

 

[oliver90owner]

I'm not saying one thing or another, just trying to prevent the 'nothing to do with MAQs' lot getting awah with false premises.

Queen cells can be capped in short order of losing the queen; if it killed the queen any young brood could easily have suffered the same fate. There is no conclusive evidence that it was not down to formic. The coincidence of queen losses elsewhere and here are not to be over-looked by the proponents of an up -until-yet untried varroa treatment ( in the UK).

Personally I would not discount the probability. Some will argue vehemently against that. I am more sensible and will keep an open mind, while noting it has happened before...

RAB

 

[beebreeder]

Also a well known fact long before MAQ's is that using Formic can kill queens, the old pads, evaporators etc all COULD have queen problems

 

[drstitson]

i'm sticking to thymol on kitchen towels.

but then have NO heather or balsam to worry about - last clover was cut some weeks back.

and average temps a good deal better than for most on here!!! ;-)

 

[Tom Bick]

Rab it could be down to the MAQs as it was mentioned this might happen when they first got their licence to sell in the uk and you are right one or two others have reported the absence of queens following the weeks treatment.

I for one have no intention in using them not through the fear of the chance of queen failure but through the hole it will make in my pocket. I am more than happy with the home made thymol products.

In the world of beekeeping the biggest thing the queens should fear is the beekeeper and a simple test would be to uncap the queen cells and take a look at whats inside and its development providing they have survived the treatment.

I am assuming that Jimmys Mum is not going to let the cells develop but the last thing she needs right now is a few small virgins running around the hive.

 

[Pete D]

I'm not saying one thing or another, just trying to prevent the 'nothing to do with MAQs' lot getting awah with false premises.

Queen cells can be capped in short order of losing the queen; if it killed the queen any young brood could easily have suffered the same fate. There is no conclusive evidence that it was not down to formic. The coincidence of queen losses elsewhere and here are not to be over-looked by the proponents of an up -until-yet untried varroa treatment ( in the UK).

Personally I would not discount the probability. Some will argue vehemently against that. I am more sensible and will keep an open mind, while noting it has happened before...

RAB

Agree that queen cells can be capped in less than 9 days using an old egg or young grub, as the good Dr and yourself have pointed out.
No open brood at all would be my concern, would the bees really have outed / ate several thousand eggs / young larvae.
As for MAQ's, my personal jury is out. Read the paperwork, spoke to the man at the convention and decided to treat a third of my hives this year.
I am sure each hive and each year will be different due to its size, position, ventilation and the weather conditions at the time.
My initial thoughts were this stuff sounds good, too good to be true.............so it probably is !
It reads like it will rid your hive of the mites completely, which sounds great untill along comes a drone or stray bee from another colony carrying a mite. This would be lessened if all your colonies and all those in 3 mile radius were treated the same....................but that cant happen, I know of at least 3 feral colonies living near me.
It would be a huge business flop for MAQ's if a large proportion of queen deaths were blamed on it this year and may be a backwards step in our fight against the mite.
Mite numbers do seem lower this year,so does associated mite problems, both linked I am sure to the lower number of bees early on, the bees were behind so it follows the mites would be too, in fact numbers of mites are probably at their highest right now in untreated hives, at least on a par with 'normal' years.
As I said my jury is still out, I will be looking in the next few days after giving the hives a week since removing the MAQ's before pulling a frame. Happily report back on here the results from my 9 hives but it just 9 hives and one season in isolation so I wont be drawing a conclusive view point having gone through the facts and evidence.....................unless its compelling.......ie.......all queens dead

Still learning, been at this 30 months now..............such a long way to go, still enjoying it and looking forward to next year with relish

 

[Jimmys Mum]

I am assuming that Jimmys Mum is not going to let the cells develop but the last thing she needs right now is a few small virgins running around the hive.

Hi Tom, thanks for the tip, and no I certainly didn't want that situation! After advice, I broke down all six queen cells late yesterday afternoon with a view to putting in a test frame later today just to be 100% sure queenless rather than the 99% sure that I currently am!

The sealed queen cells all contained white large larvae. As to exactly what day in development I could not say, but certainly not 'soon to be emerging' queens. I have sourced a quality replacement queen for next week so it's all looking good. I would have re-queened this hive in the Spring anyway as this strain of bee has proven to be very swarmy in the last 2 years!

 

[Jimmys Mum]

I am sure each hive and each year will be different due to its size, position, ventilation and the weather conditions at the time.

I suspect you've hit the nail on the head here Pete.
Just for clarity and comparison, mine were applied during a 'coolish week' 17 degrees on application, 14x12 brood boxes with one super on. OMF completely closed up, entrances fully open for the duration. The condensation problems that I experienced during use could indicate that my ventilation was still not ideal?

Absolutely in agreement that a few isolated cases do not tell us anything........

The other important consideration of course is the reported mite drop numbers post treatment.

 

[Tom Bick]

Hi Tom, thanks for the tip, and no I certainly didn't want that situation! After advice, I broke down all six queen cells late yesterday afternoon with a view to putting in a test frame later today just to be 100% sure queenless rather than the 99% sure that I currently am!

The sealed queen cells all contained white large larvae. As to exactly what day in development I could not say, but certainly not 'soon to be emerging' queens. I have sourced a quality replacement queen for next week so it's all looking good. I would have re-queened this hive in the Spring anyway as this strain of bee has proven to be very swarmy in the last 2 years!

That's great well done its often a case of elimination and you are obviously on top of the situation.

 

[Pete D]

I suspect you've hit the nail on the head here Pete.
Just for clarity and comparison, mine were applied during a 'coolish week' 17 degrees on application, 14x12 brood boxes with one super on. OMF completely closed up, entrances fully open for the duration. The condensation problems that I experienced during use could indicate that my ventilation was still not ideal?


Mine was on with temps similar 15 - 20 during the day.
Entrances fully open, no blocks and fully open mesh floor.

 

[Swarm]

Various hive configurations from single brood only, some with supers and also double brood with super. OMF open, entrances are full width, 7mm high. Temps similar.

 

[masterBK]

I used MAQS on 26 double brood colonies. A very easy to apply treatment. There was no bearding and no obvious corpses thrown out. After a week I removed the strips and checked all the colonies over. All queens were present and correct and all laying. All but one had eggs but no young larvae indicating queens had gone off lay for a few days. The single exception had both eggs and young larvae. Not sure what all the fuss is about.

 

[beeno]

I used MAQS on 26 double brood colonies. A very easy to apply treatment. There was no bearding and no obvious corpses thrown out. After a week I removed the strips and checked all the colonies over. All queens were present and correct and all laying. All but one had eggs but no young larvae indicating queens had gone off lay for a few days. The single exception had both eggs and young larvae. Not sure what all the fuss is about.

It is about dead queens and colony numbers.

 

[oliver90owner]

Look at the thread title?