Queen balling

[juliabusybee]

A separate thread on queen marking has brought back my worst beekeeping experience ever - queen balling. Happened last year (2019) towards end of season when trying to catch a queen to mark. She was a young queen, dashed around the comb, should have left her. Resulted in bees balling her. Tried to save her by pulling off bees, she was slightly moving so put her in a cage with a couple of workers but she was dead the next day. She was a nice sized queen from an otherwise v gentle colony & lost that line. Gutted, had to unite to another colony as too late to replace her. Lots of learning from that incident including don’t try to mark or clip towards the end of the season.

Have subsequently tried to find out more about balling causes, what triggers biologically & why. Very little knowledge about it but read in one paper about pheromones, that it’s probably caused by a pheromone the queen releases when she’s frightened, the bees then don’t recognise her as their queen, resulting in balling.

Have you had any balling incidents and what do you do when you see it happening? Keen to learn more

Elaine

Hi

 

[juliabusybee]

Hi
Just seeing the words ‘queen balling’ brings me out in a sweat !!! I witnessed this horrendous and distressing event after marking a really fabulous queen from a strong colony and it has left a lasting image in my head !!! I am now so worried about marking queens to the point that last year I decided I couldn’t stand the stress of it and so I now have 12 colonies with unmarked queens. I do regret not marking them now as I usually demaree as part of my swarm control but this year couldn’t find the queens in some hives so swarming was an issue . I think it’s difficult as some queens must be stressed when you mark them however hard you try not to upset them. I will have to try again next spring and mark my queens and try to overcome my fears of repeating the balling incident.

 

[rolande]

Yes the books suggest chucking in a mug of water to separate. I would suggest that by the time you get said mug the queens a gonner

Garden water butt works fine as does prior preparation.

 

[user 819]

Very few in my opinion, all queens marked & clipped here. I’ve had a couple of queens balled, possibly due to pheromones when going from colony to colony marking queens as going along? Only a guess???
If any are particularly skittish simply trapped in a crown of thorn’s, marked & then clipped on a subsequent visit. Would recommend when planning to mark queens go to the colony with that intention. Place an upturned roof close by, when found transfer frame with queen to upturned roof.
Did pick up a tip (possibly on here?), when a queen is getting balled, gouge some honey from the corner of the frame she’s on & smear her with it. Don’t be too worried about being careful, she’s gonna die so if you do it it’s just speeded up the process. The bees are then distracted by cleaning/eating up the honey & she’s saved - it does work

Yep I have used honey queen dunking for queen intro and it works. Simply dunk her make sure she is fully coated and leave her on the top bars for 5 -10 mins while they celan her up.
I was taught this by my China/HK beek friend who lives near by, he use to be a bit of a globe trotter visiting many other beeks around the world. On a trip to Bulgaria he nicked this little gem of introduction from a local beek there who said it is full proof and 100% success.

 

[Amari]

From all of the posts I wonder what percentage of queens get killed after marking through stress.
I've not seen balling as yet.

Nor have I in four decades. Strange. I mark using COT.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Nor have I in four decades. Strange. I mark using COT.

That's a long time to not observe balling queen's...
Before this season I have always used cots.
Maybe using the Queen catcher isn't so good I do wonder?

Is there anything you do specifically that is different??

 

[WoodenBeam]

Hi
Just seeing the words ‘queen balling’ brings me out in a sweat !!! I witnessed this horrendous and distressing event after marking a really fabulous queen from a strong colony and it has left a lasting image in my head !!! I am now so worried about marking queens to the point that last year I decided I couldn’t stand the stress of it and so I now have 12 colonies with unmarked queens. I do regret not marking them now as I usually demaree as part of my swarm control but this year couldn’t find the queens in some hives so swarming was an issue . I think it’s difficult as some queens must be stressed when you mark them however hard you try not to upset them. I will have to try again next spring and mark my queens and try to overcome my fears of repeating the balling incident.

I find with all stock - bees included most certainly, if you aren’t happy / confident / sure about what you’re doing they’ll sense this which then affects the outcome of what you’re trying to achieve. Please don’t take this as a criticism of yourself, just a life observation.
With regard to your own situation I’d certainly recommend a CoT (a good one not a crappy plastic thingy), work over an upturned roof using the smoker to clear bees of the encaptured queen. Good luck not that it will be needed

 

[Amari]

That's a long time to not observe balling queen's...
Before this season I have always used cots.
Maybe using the Queen catcher isn't so good I do wonder?

Is there anything you do specifically that is different??

 

[Amari]

That's a long time to not observe balling queen's...
Before this season I have always used cots.
Maybe using the Queen catcher isn't so good I do wonder?

Is there anything you do specifically that is different??

Not that I know of but I can't remember ever watching somebody else use the COT. I did try the single handed Q catcher a couple of years ago with two newbies watching. Closing the sliding door I cut her in half.....

 

[Curly green finger's]

Not that I know of but I can't remember ever watching somebody else use the COT. I did try the single handed Q catcher a couple of years ago with two newbies watching. Closing the sliding door I cut her in half.....

Interesting don't you think? that you've not seen it.. Hopefully I never do.
Thanks for the reply.

 

[Amari]

I find with all stock - bees included most certainly, if you aren’t happy / confident / sure about what you’re doing they’ll sense this which then affects the outcome of what you’re trying to achieve. Please don’t take this as a criticism of yourself, just a life observation.
With regard to your own situation I’d certainly recommend a CoT (a good one not a crappy plastic thingy), work over an upturned roof using the smoker to clear bees of the encaptured queen. Good luck not that it will be needed

Presumably the one by Thorne's with metal pins and string mesh. I've spent a fortune on them - they keep getting lost!
https://www.thorne.co.uk/index.php?route=product/search&filter_name=press+in+cage
I haven't tried the one by National Bee Supplies with metal pins and plastic mesh.
https://www.beekeeping.co.uk/products/press-in-marking-cage-with-metal-pins_590930

 

[elainemary]

Hi
Just seeing the words ‘queen balling’ brings me out in a sweat !!! I witnessed this horrendous and distressing event after marking a really fabulous queen from a strong colony and it has left a lasting image in my head !!! I am now so worried about marking queens to the point that last year I decided I couldn’t stand the stress of it and so I now have 12 colonies with unmarked queens. I do regret not marking them now as I usually demaree as part of my swarm control but this year couldn’t find the queens in some hives so swarming was an issue . I think it’s difficult as some queens must be stressed when you mark them however hard you try not to upset them. I will have to try again next spring and mark my queens and try to overcome my fears of repeating the balling incident.

Totally empathise Julia. A year on, I still think about my balling incident. It’s a bit like having a car accident you just need to get back in the driving seat & there are so many advantages to having marked queens. Good luck next spring
Elaine

 

[Swarm]

Yep I have used honey queen dunking for queen intro and it works. Simply dunk her make sure she is fully coated and leave her on the top bars for 5 -10 mins while they celan her up.
I was taught this by my China/HK beek friend who lives near by, he use to be a bit of a globe trotter visiting many other beeks around the world. On a trip to Bulgaria he nicked this little gem of introduction from a local beek there who said it is full proof and 100% success.

I have a Bulgarian friend who swears by the same method.

 

[drex]

Presumably the one by Thorne's with metal pins and string mesh. I've spent a fortune on them - they keep getting lost!
https://www.thorne.co.uk/index.php?route=product/search&filter_name=press+in+cage
I haven't tried the one by National Bee Supplies with metal pins and plastic mesh.
https://www.beekeeping.co.uk/products/press-in-marking-cage-with-metal-pins_590930

Having lost a COT, which turned up in the sole of my wellie after I had received two replacements from Thornes, I painted the ring with a yellow queen marker pen. Not lost one since

 

[Newbeeneil]

Hi
Just seeing the words ‘queen balling’ brings me out in a sweat !!! I witnessed this horrendous and distressing event after marking a really fabulous queen from a strong colony and it has left a lasting image in my head !!! I am now so worried about marking queens to the point that last year I decided I couldn’t stand the stress of it and so I now have 12 colonies with unmarked queens. I do regret not marking them now as I usually demaree as part of my swarm control but this year couldn’t find the queens in some hives so swarming was an issue . I think it’s difficult as some queens must be stressed when you mark them however hard you try not to upset them. I will have to try again next spring and mark my queens and try to overcome my fears of repeating the balling incident.

As I said in a different post, marking while she walks across the comb is hardly noticed by the queen or the workers. As long as you use a quick drying marker (Toma or similar) the workers don't get a chance to remover it. You may not get the neat little dot on the thorax but as long as you get the pen ready before you tap her back you will get an acceptable job.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

I've had a couple of young skittish queens balled in the past. I've pulled the bees off them not having a cup of water to hand and they have been alright. The balled queens then went into cages for release later, once the colony had calmed down again. So, the message seems to be leave the young'uns or the recently introduced alone, for a few weeks at least.

 

[Ian123]

Having lost a COT, which turned up in the sole of my wellie after I had received two replacements from Thornes, I painted the ring with a yellow queen marker pen. Not lost one since

Yes I’ve often found them in shoe or boot at a later date. I’ve seen balling about 6 times in almost 40 years the thought of going prepared with a bucket or mug of water is a bit of a laugh.

 

[Apple]

Yes the books suggest chucking in a mug of water to separate. I would suggest that by the time you get said mug the queens a gonner

Some beekeeping books are written by the inexperienced
Most are cut and paste from another, probably written in the last century
Take all read with a pinch of salt!

 

[rolande]

Yes I’ve often found them in shoe or boot at a later date. I’ve seen balling about 6 times in almost 40 years the thought of going prepared with a bucket or mug of water is a bit of a laugh.

It's only a laugh if balling hasn't become an 'issue' in our minds. If it has become an issue then any measure will probably be worth the effort.

I see queen's balled occasionally and can confirm antipodes observation that smoking won't break the ball efficiently. Closing up and leaving them to it is our own approach but then, we've always got both, spare queens and the acceptance that where there's livestock there's dead stock; just a fact of life. A lot of people don't have the luxury of spare queens all year round, although they could, quite easily. Equally, many beekeepers are far more attached to individual queen's than I am so I'd never belittle someone *if* they chose to have a bit of water to hand.

 

[beeno]

I mark all my queens using a COT or fingers. Never lost one yet after marking. I do let the paint dry before release.
Have had two go cataleptic ( comatose) but they both came round after being left alone for a few mins

Never lost one after marking either and never had one comatose.