Preemptive Demaree…does it have to be?

[Do224]

I really like the concept of the preemptive demaree. It just seems to kill multiple birds with one stone (swarm control, maintain hive numbers and maximise honey yield).

But…I’m not clear on if/why it has to be a preemptive measure rather than a reactive one.

I’ve read multiple times on the forum that it MUST be preemptive and is a waste of time if done after queen cells are present. Why is this please?

Black Mountain Honey apparently does a demaree all the time when he finds queen cells…so why is the consensus on this forum that it’s not the done thing?

See about the 45 second mark in the below video…

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I’ve read multiple times on the forum that it MUST be preemptive and is a waste of time if done after queen cells are present. Why is this please?

read Demarree's article on the method and you'll find out.
Don't really care what Laurence says - he's wrong.
The whole point is to separate the queen from the brood before swarm preparations are made, the nurse bees and brood are then well away from the queen, they only build a few supersedure cells (if any) and they are happy in their own little world up top whilst the swarm instigators are in the bottom box busily remaking their home in an empty box.
Once swarm cells are prepared, it doesn't matter where the nurse bees are, the swarm instigators are stuck in a box with the queen, they've already made their decision so they'll go
I've used Demarree almost exclusively as a method of swarm avoidance for years and yes, have sometimes taken the risk by using Demarree when I have found one or two QC's and probably 80 or 90% of those have still swarmed - in fact if you look on various fora and facebook sites there are countless tales of woe of bees swarming on Demarree after queen cells are found. And the ones that say it worked - well, maybe they are reluctant to confess they made a booboo?

 

[Erichalfbee]

If you watch the video all the way through at around 31 minutes Laurence says that he does get colonies intent on swarming and he gets swarm cells in the bottom box
What are the chances of more swarm cells if the bees are in swarm mode already as opposed to doing the manipulation before the bees have made swarm preps ?

 

[Amari]

I can't answer your question authoritatively - plenty of others to on here to do this.
A few comments:
1. What does he do with the top brood boxes full of back-filled honey, esp the 14x12 frames? Not easy to extract.
2. 15-16 minutes in he talks of the 'original brood box' or 'original brood nest' sitting on the hive floor. No: this is a new BB with a single frame of brood with the Q amongst 10 frames of foundation.
3. When placing a box upon the one below he places square on square - likely to squish bees. Best to place diagonally then twist to sweep off any bees on the upper surface of the lower box.
4. You'd have to be a Tarzan to lift those boxes above head height. No good for the elderly and decrepit like me and maybe not for ladies - if one is allowed to mention gender nowadays........

 

[Do224]

If you watch the video all the way through at around 31 minutes Laurence says that he does get colonies intent on swarming and he gets swarm cells in the bottom box
What are the chances of more swarm cells if the bees are in swarm mode already as opposed to doing the manipulation before the bees have made swarm preps ?

Yep, I totally get what you’re both saying and I’m inclined to agree with you.

I just find it really weird that he says he does a demaree all the time when he sees swarm cells. I get the impression that he knows his stuff… surely if it didn’t work then he wouldn’t do it???

 

[JamezF]

My reasoning as to why a Demarree can't be relied upon once queen cells have been found is that to stop swarming at that point you need to separate the flying bees and the house bees on the grounds that if there aren't enough house bees to go with the swarm to build comb and raise the early brood then a swarm is more likely to fail and the bees' response to that is (hopefully) to give up on the idea of swarming.

A Demarree however doesn't really separate the house bees from the flying bees. Some, perhaps a large proportion, are more likely to be in a different part of the hive, but the two groups are still free to interact and mix, so swarming is likely to continue as planned. Even if the QCs are in the top there's nothing to stop all the bees being aware that they're there and the old queen in the bottom is free to leave with the swarm once they're capped.

Is that a fair interpretation? Or are there other things going on that I haven't considered?

James

 

[Moody]

Hi, i have read the same. However I attempted my first Demaree last Saturday after seeing 2 charged queen cups (very early stages). I went in on Day 4 to remove any QC's made and didn't find any in the top or bottom boxes.

So far, so good. In my opinion they may have been swarming due to lack of space to lay eggs.. (1st yr BK, still learning) and not impulse to naturally reproduce.

The next time if I see any swarm preps, I will have to Nuc the queen.

 

[RichardK]

This article on The Apiarist web site also talks of using the demaree method as either a pre-emptive or reactive method, similar to Lawrence. The caveat is that it's reactive up to & including open charged queen cells. If capped, it's too late.

I'm guessing that the debate about whether this method is applicable to colonies with queen cells depends on whether you're talking about open, or closed cells - not something that people always specify. And presumably if a charged queen cup is only 2 days old rather than 6 days it seems reasonable that there will be a greater chance of success - diminishing returns if you will the longer the queen cell is there for. Moody's experience above would also seem to bear this out.

 

[Do224]

This article on The Apiarist web site also talks of using the demaree method as either a pre-emptive or reactive method, similar to Lawrence. The caveat is that it's reactive up to & including open charged queen cells. If capped, it's too late.

I'm guessing that the debate about whether this method is applicable to colonies with queen cells depends on whether you're talking about open, or closed cells - not something that people always specify. And presumably if a charged queen cup is only 2 days old rather than 6 days it seems reasonable that there will be a greater chance of success - diminishing returns if you will the longer the queen cell is there for. Moody's experience above would also seem to bear this out.

Really interesting article which definitely suggests using the demaree as a reactive method after finding uncapped swarm cells.

So @BMH and The Apiarist both suggest it works as a reactive swarm control measure. I’m having a hard time accepting that they’re both ‘simply wrong’…

As a beginner, this is the kind of situation that can be quite difficult…experienced beekeepers advising that something works and other experienced beekeepers advising that it doesn’t. I guess some things you’ve just got to work out for yourself

 

[Erichalfbee]

Well try it
It’s the only way.
Maybe it’s just semantics and a reactive Demaree should be called something else.
I did one having found eggs in a few queen cups last week and they have swarmed. Not quick enough

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I'm guessing that the debate about whether this method is applicable to colonies with queen cells depends on whether you're talking about open, or closed cells

No, it applies to both - you'd be very lucky to get a successful Demarree with either

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I’m having a hard time accepting that they’re both ‘simply wrong’…

why?

 

[user 20297]

Really interesting article which definitely suggests using the demaree as a reactive method after finding uncapped swarm cells.

So @BMH and The Apiarist both suggest it works as a reactive swarm control measure. I’m having a hard time accepting that they’re both ‘simply wrong’…

As a beginner, this is the kind of situation that can be quite difficult…experienced beekeepers advising that something works and other experienced beekeepers advising that it doesn’t. I guess some things you’ve just got to work out for yourself

People give their advice in good faith and you have to assume that it's based on their own experience and they hope for the best for you when giving it. Some beekeepers here will give advice without implying that it's the definitive guidance; I like that approach.

In my opinion, both Laurence @Black Mountain Honey and The Prof. @fatshark give consistently good, well-explained and practical advice. Neither of them appears to come from a long family tradition of beekeepers and both of them are willing to try a new approach to an aspect of beekeeping and are prepared to admit their mistakes and failures. All of this sets them apart from many other people who give beekeeping advice.

You're right, you'll work it out yourself. I've found that it's best to go with your gut feeling, but be prepared to change in the face of real outcomes. I would say that in general, after two years, I've moved from trying many of the more alternative ways of keeping bees to finding that there are good, practical reasons why some of the standard approaches and techniques are the standard. On this matter, I think that @jenkinsbrynmair has given a very good explanation of why a Demaree must be done pre-emptively if you want any sort of peace of mind from it.

 

[RichardK]

I think if you've done your homework & you believe a given approach will work then that's what you should do.

There is rarely, if ever, only one way of doing things & we all learn by making mistakes. Making our own informed decisions will I believe make us better bee keepers.

 

[Do224]

why?

Because they’re well respected for giving good advice…as are you. Herein lies the issue.

I guess I’ll just experiment with it myself…but not while I’ve just got the one hive

 

[Moody]

Well try it
It’s the only way.
Maybe it’s just semantics and a reactive Demaree should be called something else.
I did one having found eggs in a few queen cups last week and they have swarmed. Not quick enough

Interesting to understand how they ended up swarming?
Did you go in on Day 4/5 to cut QC's?
Did they create the QC in the top or bottom box?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Interesting to understand how they ended up swarming?
Did you go in on Day 4/5 to cut QC's?
Did they create the QC in the top or bottom box?

No. 1week and yes there were the few. Three or four if I recall
No queen cells in bottom box

 

[pargyle]

Because they’re well respected for giving good advice…as are you. Herein lies the issue.

I guess I’ll just experiment with it myself…but not while I’ve just got the one hive

Well ... the way I look at it is simple... work on the probabilities ...

A: Demaree is known to be 95% successful when used to pre-empt swarming.

B: It's not as effective when used as a reactive method .. indeed, you could describe it as a less than successful method of artificial swarm management.

C: There are a few proven to be very successful AS methods when you find queen cells in your hive.

So ... I play the odds ... why would I want to risk a less than successful method when I find queen cells in my colonies ? - Far better to play the odds and go with sometthing that will, in all probability, work.

But, it comes with the caveat - they are your bees and if you want to experiment then go for it - just be aware of the risk. I'm with JBM ... Demaree works as a pre-emptive measure.

 

[Moody]

C: There are a few proven to be very successful AS methods when you find queen cells in your hive.

Valuable feedback. To help in my journey, in your opinion, what would the more successful AS methods be?

 

[pargyle]

Valuable feedback. To help in my journey, in your opinion, what would the more successful AS methods be?

The two most reliable are probably the Nuc method - there's a whole thread about it on here recently - and Pagden ... but there's a slew of variations, most of which work.

What you have to achieve is fooling the bees into thinking they have already swarmed ... IE: Separarating the queen and the 'swarm' bees from the brood ... just pick one of the well documented methods and follow it to the letter. Wally Shaw's guide will help you.

The mistake people make is mixing up one or more methods or not following a trusted method to the letter - and the dates of manipulations.