Piping for days - wish I could see what's going on!

[bjosephd]

I know there have been a lot of threads on here about piping and other related queen noises, quacking, tooting, and wotnot…

But blimey, I've had two queens shouting at each other for a few days now! And at night you can really here them at it as the rest of the bees are quiet.

I sit next to the hive with a whisky late at night and don't need to get close at all to here them piping at each other like nobody's business.

The hive is a 2 week old swarm with an added brood frame from a local which had a few queen cells on due to the hive becoming hopelessly queenless a couple of days after moving in.

I know nobody knows truly what's going on in there, so this isn't really a question, but for something that's apparently a very rare thing to hear it's actually about time they fought it out and one of them get out and mate while the weather is good!

From my listening and research I reckon one is hatched and the other still in her cell.

 

[pargyle]

So ... You had a swarm with a queen in it - are you sure they were hopelessly queenless ? Did you actually see a dead queen or kill her ?

If there were a 'few' queen cells on the frame you added then you will, almost certainly, have a 'few' virgins in there who will now be fighting for supremacy. The unfortunate side of this is that fights can leave even the surviving sole queen damaged.

It's a bit late to do anything about it but I would not have left a 'few' active queen cells .. I would have knocked down all but the biggest .. or perhaps kept two at most.

Or, you could even have cut out one 'reserve' queen cell and put that with a cupful of bees into an Apidea or even a dummied down nuc box.

Sadly, you now have open warfare in your hive and all you can do is hope that the best queen wins without any injuries and gets mated ...

 

[Finman]

From my listening and research I reckon one is hatched and the other still in her cell.

I bet that piping stops today, because hive is ready to swarm. Perhaps it is hanging outside already.

 

[bjosephd]

Yep, it was all a bit of a mess really… yep, the queen definitely died, she (marked queen) ended up out front with a handful of bees around her, she didn't last much longer.

Theory is she got slightly damaged in post swarm manipulations and then got booted out for being no good, but sadly with no eggs laid. But a bit of a mystery really. Local autopsy says she was injured.

The bees then started behaving in a very discombobulated fashion and hive rrroaring. Local beek thoroughly checked through with me and no laid eggs to raise a queen from. I took 2 local beeks' advice (one of which regional bbka regional chairman I think) and they agreed to try this frame. The bees certainly became happy and calm again once the frame was added.

I have to say I wasn't entirely convinced, as you suggest, that so many queen cells a good idea! But like you say, too late now dammit, unless I go in there and pick a side!

So like you, I hope that the survivor survives unscathed. Although I have read that sometimes the bees shout it out and the workers can pick a side and beat up who has been established as the least desirable queen.

Many fingers and toes crossed as battle royal commences...

 

[bjosephd]

I bet that piping stops today, because hive is ready to swarm. Perhaps it is hanging outside already.

I hope not, but it's anyone's guess. A handful of very experienced beekeepers saying rather contrasting stuff.

Some think colony is too small to swarm and that they wouldn't leave a hive with no brood… if a swarm does leave though, I imagine that both the colony and the swarm will be screwed as they would be too small. Maybe I'll keep an eye out and grab the swarm and then I'll have two (rather sorry) colonies.

Maybe I should start offering odds and taking bets!

 

[pargyle]

I hope not, but it's anyone's guess. A handful of very experienced beekeepers saying rather contrasting stuff.

Maybe I should start offering odds and taking bets!

Well Finman's got years of experience but I think he's wrong on this occasion .. having hived a swarm and them being queenless for a while I reckon they will be more inclined to start colony building rather than buggering off again. BUT ... You can never be certain !

But you are to some degree right ..the bees will often keep virgins contained within queen cells after one queen has hatched out to preserve them as a bit of insurance ... if the emerged queen looks OK then she can be allowed to sting and kill the other un-emerged virgins whilst they are still in their cells.

As for 'Piping' .. well, Wikipedia says it better than I could ...

"Piping describes a noise made by virgin and mated queen bees during certain times of the virgin queens' development. Fully developed virgin queens communicate through vibratory signals: "quacking" from virgin queens in their queen cells and "tooting" from queens free in the colony, collectively known as piping. A virgin queen may frequently pipe before she emerges from her cell and for a brief time afterwards. Mated queens may briefly pipe after being released in a hive.

Piping is most common when there is more than one queen in a hive. It is postulated that the piping is a form of battle cry announcing to competing queens and the workers their willingness to fight. It may also be a signal to the worker bees which queen is the most worthwhile to support.

The piping sound is a G♯ (aka A♭). The adult queen pipes for a two-second pulse followed by a series of quarter-second toots"

 

[bjosephd]

Yep all interesting stuff… done a lot of reading up on it… I'm a dab hand with the ol' googling (just ask the people who come into my bookshop and ask for a very particular and obscure book without the title OR the author!).

I'll try and record it if they are still at it tonight… but there is definitely the 2 second ish pulse followed by about 12 mini rhythmic pulses as wiki says. Often replied to or overlapped with a handful of mini pulses - the reply (or '2nd' queen) never has the long first pulse and doesn't seem as powerful as the first.

I am yet to check the tuning… maybe I'll dig out my old violin and check!

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yep all interesting stuff… done a lot of reading up on it
Bees pipe swarms out too.
I've heard that from one of my own hives.

 

[bjosephd]

Yep all interesting stuff… done a lot of reading up on it
Bees pipe swarms out too.
I've heard that from one of my own hives.

Apparently so… it appears that piping is used for rather varied things.

Also I think I've created a rather unnatural situation in there… queen cells instantly appearing in a newly swarmed colony… I doubt that ever happens in nature.

 

[user 6228]

Two emerged Queens is an unstable state for a colony. The lifetime of the unstable state and the transition method (sorocide or swarming) to the stable state are uncertain.
If you want certainty split the colony yourself.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Some think colony is too small to swarm

Silly thing to say really - had a nuc swarm with but two frames of brood and not too strong a population of bees in once

 

[bjosephd]

Silly thing to say really - had a nuc swarm with but two frames of brood and not too strong a population of bees in once

Indeed... anything could happen... I think it was more that they have lots of space rather than being in a nuc, and also as I went on to say...

Some think colony is too small to swarm and that they wouldn't leave a hive with no brood…

(hate BOLD... it seems so shouty)

But then there might be enough remanence of brood from that frame put in a few weeks ago.

But of course, truly nobody knows what's gonna happen in this situation, but swarming is certainly on the list!

 

[Finman]

I hope not, but it's anyone's guess. A handful of very experienced beekeepers saying rather contrasting stuff.

!

Sure. My 50 y experience is nothing.

System is so, that when after swarm developed, first virgin emerge and starts to run over combs and peep. Other virgins stay in their cells and peep there. There is a tiny hole in the cap, and I think that workers feed the queen via hole. Virgins stay in cells at least two days and after that they are capable go fly.

When a swarm leaves from hive, the rest of virgins 10-15 rush out and start to kill each others.

But if more experienced beeks say something else, I dot understand what experience they have.

.

 

[Finman]

.
If the colony is not going to swarm, first emerged virgin seeks every queen cell and destroys them... A hole in side of cell.

 

[bjosephd]

Sure. My 50 y experience is nothing.

I totally never suggested your experience is nothing Finman, there is a lot of experience out there, on here, and locally, many many decades of experience, and as always in beekeeping there is a fair amount of contrast, and nobody will truly know for this particular situation until it happens.

I am in no place to judge who's 50 years experience is more valuable than another's 50 years experience. It's all valuable, it often contrasts, I listen, make a judgement on action (or no action) as best I can in the current situation, I then watch, learn, and share.

And as I've said to you before in another thread:

"I truly respect and appreciate all the knowledge and experience from you and many others..."

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Sure. My 50 y experience is nothing.

Nice to see you agree with the rest of us on something

 

[Finman]

.
Listen to bees. They know what to do.
Ask, are you going to swarm.

If they say peep peep, it means, no, no.

 

[badger65]

Only heard it once. The swarm marched into the hive, she piped and they left. Getting good at climbing trees

 

[Finman]

.
When swarm has left and you open the swarmed hive after half a your, you may se several virgins walking around the hive. I have picked sometimes 10 such virgins in same hive. If weather stops a swarm to leave, I have met 5 virgins in same swarm.

 

[BeeJayBee]

Some think colony is too small to swarm and that they wouldn't leave a hive with no brood…

Cast swarms will leave a colony with no eggs and no young larvae because the old, mated, queen will have left 8-9 days before the new queens emerge from their cells. If the colony lets more than one of those new queen survive then one, or more, can leave with a swarm. Whatever happens after the first swarm leaves it will be several weeks before eggs are seen in the original hive.

If there are two virgin queens in your brood box then one can go in a swarm, leaving the other behind. Both new colonies might be too small to survive next winter, but it's their choice now.

It'll be interesting to know what does happen. Keep us up to date please.