Pin Test (Update)

[B+.]

Thanks, your link has answered quite a few questions I was thinking about, and one obvious one; what type of pin!
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hemobllo-S...+pin&qid=1551999752&s=gateway&sr=8-2-fkmrnull

You need a 10*10 cell trapezoid to use as a guide.
Locate an area of comb with solid sealed brood. Place the guide over the comb and uncap a few cells around the guide. If they are not purple-eyed pupa, locate another comb or wait a few days.Mark the start and end position with a highlighter to help you reposition the guide. Also mark the frame top so you know which frame it was.
Pierce the centre of each cell, going down to the midrib. If the cell has anything in it, empty it. When you have pierced 50 cells, mark the position with a highlighter.
8-12 hours later count the number of emptied cells (Opened is now thought to be better correlated with hygienic behaviour). Since you pierced 50 cells, you need to multiply this by 2 to get a hygienic figure that is out of 100.
A hygienic colony clears >75% in 8 hours. I wouldn't consider testing a colony with less than 90% for VSH

Use a number 2 entomology pin (http://www.entosphinx.cz/en/entomol...icke-spendliky-nerezove-c000-delka-38-mm.html ). Your link is perfect too.

 

[B+.]

Testing for hygienic bees... the beekeeper and breeder in the know is using and selecting Cornish Amm has had some successes with VSH.***

Must admit I am wary of carrying cylinders of Liquid N2 and the pin prick method looks to be more easily carried out

[***Personal correspondence that I have been asked not to share as his IP.]

BUT it does go to prove that "ordinary" beekeepers who do not have a claimed string of high qualifications can do good field work.... and others can get involved with " Citizen |Science " .... and use good quality bees bred in the UK

Yeghes da

I will disagree with you about Amm because they have a number of undesirable traits too.

It is easy to claim VSH expression. Many colonies do, but the expression needs to be high enough to seriously deplete the varroa mite. What percentage does your Amm express? You also need a big enough population of High-expression colonies to start a VSH development programme. I am only able to do this by working with breeders in other countries.

Liquid nitrogen is dangerous stuff. It can be used relatively safely under laboratory conditions but you are asking for trouble using it in the field. Imagine what would happen if you tripped. The pin-test is much safer. However, as I said earlier, this is for HYGIENIC behaviour, NOT Varroa Sensitive Hygiene.

I also agree about people getting involved. The testing techniques are not too difficult but the results do need to be collated and analysed properly. We have a small group here in the UK who are doing this now using carnica

 

[SDM]

[***Personal correspondence that I have been asked not to share as his IP.]

BUT it does go to prove that "ordinary" beekeepers who do not have a claimed string of high qualifications can do good field work.... and others can get involved with " Citizen |Science " .... and use good quality bees bred in the UK

Yeghes da

You're idea of proof is my definition of hearsay

 

[Beefriendly]

BUT it does go to prove that "ordinary" beekeepers who do not have a claimed string of high qualifications can do good field work.... and others can get involved with " Citizen |Science " .... and use good quality bees bred in the UK

It proves nothing at the moment, although I agree that citizen science can be a very underrated tool.
The irony of all this hearsay about VSH bees is that you and B- who say you have them don't sell them. Not that I don't believe either of you.
Looks like I will have to buy some overseas commercial VSH Buckfast bees to play around with.

 

[Finman]

.... although I agree that citizen science can be a very underrated tool.
.

My education in university took 5 years to be biological researcher. I learned how to get reliable information and how to evaluate it.

Citizen science??? .... Never heard about that. To acquire information and to do science are very different things. To do real science is mostly very expencive work. Far to expencive as a hobby.

 

[B+.]

My education in university took 5 years to be biological researcher. I learned how to get reliable information and how to evaluate it.

My education has taken all of my life. Have you never heard of life-long learning?

It is not just the piece of paper you get at the end of a course that matters, but what you do with it. In fact, the scattering of degrees I have gathered along the way have only served to teach me how big the subject really is and how much more there is to learn.

Some skills are transferable: objectivity and critical thinking - but attaining a level of knowledge is not mastery of the subject. It is merely the doorway to further study.

 

[For want of a better word]

Some skills are transferable: objectivity and critical thinking - but attaining a level of knowledge is not mastery of the subject. It is merely the doorway to further study.

And I believe that doorway should be open to all.... not slammed shut because the collaborators do not have PhDs etc etc!

 

[Finman]

My education has taken all of my life. Have you never heard of life-long learning?

It is not just the piece of paper you get at the end of a course that matters, but what you do with it. In fact, the scattering of degrees I have gathered along the way have only served to teach me how big the subject really is and how much more there is to learn.

Some skills are transferable: objectivity and critical thinking - but attaining a level of knowledge is not mastery of the subject. It is merely the doorway to further study.

I have learned three new things from you
1) Finland has different climate
2) After age of 24 I/everybody must learn new things.
3) you think that Finland does not have modern civilization at all
.

 

[B+.]

And I believe that doorway should be open to all.... not slammed shut because the collaborators do not have PhDs etc etc!

You missed my point. I was referring to Finman citing 5 years of university study as qualifying him to perform biological research. I am not dismissing his qualification but highlighting that this is just the beginning. I spent 13 years at university and gained 3 degrees along the way. I don't claim to have mastered the subject though. There is always more to learn.
That is quite different to "Citizen Science" projects which can use relatively unskilled labour to gather data, but, this is different to being able to collate and interpret that data, let alone present a conclusion based on the evidence.
I regard myself as being quite numerate, perhaps even more so than the average person, but, some of the formulae that Prof Brascamp throws at me are scary things. What I am trying to say is that an expert can make difficult things seem easy, but that doesn't mean they are.

 

[Finman]

There is always more to learn.
That is quite different to "Citizen Science" projects which can use relatively unskilled labour to gather data,

To gather data is not science. Data and data.

To make science you need a plan, an arrangement, how do you can sieve the data from the arrangement.

Citizens usually get mostly answers, which were even the meaning of researching. They just draw their own conclusions from the story.

Another thing, which I have wondered 15 years in this forum is that I have given numerous research link, but almost no one have read them guys prefer to invent their own solutions to the thing.

Education researching means too, how to read research results, what others have found out.

 

[B+.]

Citizens usually get mostly answers, which were even the meaning of researching. They just draw their own conclusions from the story.

I agree. It is easy to draw the wrong conclusion from a limited perspective. That is why I said the data needs to be collated and interpreted properly.

A field researcher may see only a small part of the picture and draw the wrong conclusion. When all the data is brought together, it may support a different conclusion.

For example, I might see what I believe to be a good queen during my testing. I produce daughters in the belief that she has some trait that I would like to propagate. However, the picture may be completely different when the breeding values are published the following February. I might have chosen the wrong queen and ignored queens that showed better promise. I did that last year, rearing lots of daughters from a queen that was piled high with honey supers. It turned out that my best queen for breeding purposes was the one that produced the least honey and sat largely ignored in my test apiary. I will correct that error now that I have the bigger picture (see https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=661911&postcount=9 )

 

[For want of a better word]

To gather data is not science. Data and data.

To make science you need a plan, an arrangement, how do you can sieve the data from the arrangement.

Citizens usually get mostly answers, which were even the meaning of researching. They just draw their own conclusions from the story.

Another thing, which I have wondered 15 years in this forum is that I have given numerous research link, but almost no one have read them guys prefer to invent their own solutions to the thing.

Education researching means too, how to read research results, what others have found out.

I can not argue with any of the research methodologies...
BUT the beauty with Citizen Science is that the Citizens can and do stump up a huge amount of funding to get research done... and do a lot of field work ... supervised and planned of course.

 

[Finman]

BUT the beauty with Citizen Science is that the Citizens can and do stump up a huge amount of funding to get research done..

In beekeeping I cannot see any "citizen science". IT is mere time killing.

Quite few country has resources to research beekeeping. One researcher does not make summer.

I wonder, what problems ordinary citizen can find out. People are not even capable to understand recent scienti,fic reports, even if they have been written in English.
.
Beekeeping has enough " once upon a time" stories. One of those is "since Ice Age native bees" , which eveloped on arctic tundra.

.

 

[Finman]

a huge amount of funding to get research done...

Like what in British beekeeping?

 

[B+.]

Like what in British beekeeping?

Like the BBSRC (https://bbsrc.ukri.org/ ) or EARS (Eastern Associations Research Studentships) which my local association contributes to.

 

[Finman]

Like the BBSRC (https://bbsrc.ukri.org/ ) or EARS (Eastern Associations Research Studentships) which my local association contributes to.

I did not understand anything from link, how it is "citizen" work.

.

 

[B+.]

I did not understand anything from link, how it is "citizen" work.

.

It was in response to post #34. Cheers had said that beekeepers were supporting research financially. You seemed to doubt that so I provided two instances that my local beekeeping association provides financial support for biological science

 

[Finman]

It was in response to post #34. Cheers had said that beekeepers were supporting research financially.

That is not a wonder. In Finland lots of companies support universities.

The are lots of foundations with individual person names which support students and researching.

Like LASI project, it is private funding.

.

 

[Finman]

BUT the beauty with Citizen Science is that the Citizens can and do stump up a huge amount of funding to get research done... and do a lot of field work ... supervised and planned of course.

Citizen science = to give money? I got different impression from wikipedia's explanation, but what ever.

Lets hope that it works!

 

[B+.]

Citizen science = to give money? I got different impression from wikipedia's explanation, but what ever.

Lets hope that it works!

Actually, no. That was part of the message that Cheers was attempting to convey. The other part was where individuals donate their time/expertise towards a worthy goal.
I grew up in an area where we were encouraged to help one another. I have tried to do that all of my life, but, I'm beginning to feel like a dinosaur