Oxalic acid sublimation vs trickling

[melias]

I wasn't very active on the forum for a year or two and on my return it seems that the standard method of applying OA in the U.K. Has gone from trickling to sublimation.

What changed? Has there been new research or guidelines? Or is it more a change in fashion?

 

[Eyeman]

Hi
Welcome back.

Al Toufailia, H.M., Scandian, L, Ratnieks, F. L .W. (2015) Towards integrated control of varroa: comparing application methods and doses of oxalic acid on the mortality of phoretic Varroa destructor mites and their honey bee hosts. Journal of Apicultural Research, 54(2), 109-121

 

[Finman]

What changed? Has there been new research or guidelines? Or is it more a change in fashion?

Nothing has changed. Trickling works as it has worked 15 years succesfully.
This forum has become mad with its fumigation

 

[eddyh]

Nothing has changed. Trickling works as it has worked 15 years succesfully.
This forum has become mad with its fumigation

Thats right nothing changed,except you now don't need to open the hive in the middle of winter,and still get as good a kill rate as trickling.

 

[Finman]

Thats right nothing changed,except you now don't need to open the hive in the middle of winter,and still get as good a kill rate as trickling.

Fumigation has been used 30 years.


To open the hive in winter is not a problem. Lift cover and that's it. It does not harm bees.
.

 

[eddyh]

Fumigation has been used 30 years.


To open the hive in winter is not a problem. Lift cover and that's it. It does not harm bees.
.

Not a problem to open up a hive,unless the weather is bad.with vapourising you dont have to worry about things like that,and less messing about.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I wasn't very active on the forum for a year or two and on my return it seems that the standard method of applying OA in the U.K. Has gone from trickling to sublimation.

What changed? Has there been new research or guidelines? Or is it more a change in fashion?

I have been using a hot iron for four years now. Lots of people for longer and Hivemaker uses a commercial version.
The first year I used it in winter but it has now become my sole varroa treatment and I have abandoned thymol and formic acids.There has been lots of chat here about how easy it is and the link that eyeman provides and a visit to LASI's own website show how LASI have used previously garnered information in tandem with producing their own "hygienic" queens to sell......
They have produced a video showing you how to apply the treatment...there are some glaring safety issues but it's a start.

 

[Finman]

Not a problem to open up a hive,unless the weather is bad.with vapourising you dont have to worry about things like that,and less messing about.

You can choose a proper weather, for vaporazing too.
.
Winter in France is not bad.
+5C is ideal to trickling

In under 0C weather fingers freeze.
.

 

[eddyh]

You can choose a proper weather, for vaporazing too.
.
Winter in France is not bad.
+5C is ideal to trickling

In under 0C weather fingers freeze.
.

How about if it starts to rain.would you carry on trickling,like Sid james.

 

[peterbees]

I have been using a hot iron for four years now. Lots of people for longer and Hivemaker uses a commercial version.
The first year I used it in winter but it has now become my sole varroa treatment and I have abandoned thymol and formic acids.There has been lots of chat here about how easy it is and the link that eyeman provides and a visit to LASI's own website show how LASI have used previously garnered information in tandem with producing their own "hygienic" queens to sell......
They have produced a video showing you how to apply the treatment...there are some glaring safety issues but it's a start.

See the Lasi video here http://tinyurl.com/jtsbo5j

 

[fatshark]

I wasn't very active on the forum for a year or two and on my return it seems that the standard method of applying OA in the U.K. Has gone from trickling to sublimation.

What changed? Has there been new research or guidelines? Or is it more a change in fashion?

The 'standard method' has probably not changed in the UK ... but this forum doesn't represent a cross-section of UK beekeepers*. Most beekeeping groups I visit still predominantly use trickling (if they use anything).

The JAR reference quoted by Eyeman claims sublimation is less harmful (based on Spring colony strengths) but also only treats broodless colonies - as a consequence of stripping out all sealed brood before application. I'd be surprised if there was much difference between the two methods if applied in the conventional manner i.e. whether or not brood is present.

* generally much lower winter losses, older queens, many more supers, bigger gentler colonies, earlier filled supers, lower mite levels, fewer swarms, bigger prime swarms, 100% effective bait hives, fewer matchsticks, better grafting success, colder winters, blacker black bees, purer Buckfasts ... I could go on

Welcome back and Happy New Year ... if you want to trickle and want a pre-made mix then CWJ still appears to list it.

Oh yes ... the other thing that's changed is that Api-Bioxal is the only VMD-approved oxalic-acid containing treatment ...

 

[eddyh]

See the Lasi video here http://tinyurl.com/jtsbo5j

Nice video.

 

[Finman]

How about if it starts to rain.would you carry on trickling,like Sid james.

Yes rain...never thought about that.. Trickling in rain....

It is then better let them die then than wait that rains stops some day

 

[eddyh]

trickling or vapourising,as long as the end result is the same,who cares.i find it easier vapourising, but not quicker. whatever trickles your fancy.

 

[Finman]

.
I have trickled 13 years. Never got into mind how difficult it is.

Before Apistan Era it was Perizin trickling. Trickling was exactly the same as with oxalic. It was first time year in 1987. Before Perizin there was no method what to use. Mite just killed all hives in the yard.

To trickle 20 hives is nothing. I just pass one writing in forum.

 

[oliver90owner]

Finny likes trickling. I think he gets lots of satisfaction from giving out the preparation details for the solution - again and again and again....

Yes, here we have Finny claiming 'if it was alright thirty years ago...' but elsewhere decries people who don't adopt the moden better methods. Sometimes it seems like he lives in the past....

I've trickled only once, ever. Opening boxes to pour liquid over the bees in midwinter seems daft to me. Too late to really save a colony before spring. Winter bees need to be free of varroa-carried viruses, so far better to treat in the autumn. Trickling is only (or should be) useful for mopping up a few varroa so the beek can forget about treating until later in the forthcoming season.

There are reports of trickling causing colony death if they have already carrying a fair nosema load.

Thymol in the autumn used to be more than sufficieent to get strong, healthy (and well provisioned) colonies through the winter and off to a good start in the spring. So why trickle in midwinter? Better to leave the bees in peaceful slumber, is my view.

Anyway, there is plenty of forum reading you can do, in order to catch up on the topic.

 

[rdmw]

There was a good article in the bbk magazine recently quoting a >99% mite kill rate for sublimation if used on a broodless colony (midwinter or a swarm) I don't know how this compares to trickling.
The sublimated oxalic acid is highly toxic and can be fatal if inhaled so an appropriate respirator and safe working practice is essential.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Millet]

Its a no brainier for me and i am glad i researched Oxalic Acid vaporizing because there was no chance of me pouring anything on the bees during winter, or any other time come to think of it.

 

[Finman]

Yes, here we have Finny claiming 'if it was alright thirty years ago...' but elsewhere decries people who don't adopt the moden better methods.

Sometimes it seems like he lives in the past....

I've trickled only once, ever. Opening boxes to pour liquid over the bees in midwinter seems daft to me. Too late to really save a colony before spring. Winter bees need to be free of varroa-carried viruses, so far better to treat in the autumn. Trickling is only (or should be) useful for mopping up a few varroa so the beek can forget about treating until later in the forthcoming season.

There are reports of trickling causing colony death if they have already carrying a fair nosema load.

.

Well well...

The guy who lives in future.... Full of disasters..

Trickling kills nosema hives...

I have had nosema hives, but trickling does not have killed any.

Trickling kills mites...
.
,

 

[Into the lions den]

Finman and I have our disagreements....but usually healthy ones. In this case I think he bears listening to.

When we need to use OA we do trickling. The interference in minimal and the bees tidy up the syrup very quickly. Its really easy to do. SOME colonies end up with a discernable ( but not large) number of dead bees outside but apart from that its no big deal.

Some who cite this as an issue in winter are among those who open the hives frequently to give little bits of candy at a time rather than a big block at once and then don't disturb until spring.

I have a number of issues with sublimation (though trickling is far from perfect too, and can be grossly damaging to small colonies).

A chemist friend feels it to be dangerous without breathing apparatus.
We have OMFs on most of our floors, so need to break open the bottom of the hive (in wood the floor and brood are stapled together) to close off the mesh panels. This is more of a disturbance than a simple trickle.
One team of two can do hundreds in a day with trickling. One guy did 1400 here just before Christmas in 4 days...with no helper. Its a quick process and the disturbance is minimal, the bees hardly notice it.

Someone wrote about tearing open the top of the hive and administering a cold shower in the midst of winter. That's just unhelpful hyperbole. The bees cope fine with it, and indeed this cold shower is syrup, which even this week some hives have been taking to some extent.

Irrespective of current fashions, both methods work just fine, but tricking works better for us due to the nature of our hives and operating needs. We use it as a tidy up measure. especially if any 'in season' treatment was way back in mid summer and the mites have had a chance to start building up again, or if reinfestation may have happened (common at the heather), so the early spring brood, when there is not much of it, does not get much predation.

Where we DONT use trickling is on any colony which is small, by which I mean 5 seams of bees or less. Nucs are ALWAYS strip treated, and we keep strips in hand for any small ones met at oxalic time. Its far from an ideal time to give strips, but it seems to have the same result by spring and does not give the hives a knock as oxalic can do. Its a small barely noticed knock to a big colony but can be significant to a small one. these small ones (nucs apart) are probably no more than 10% of our wintering colonies so its no big deal to give that number special treatment.