Oxalic Acid now - pros / cons?

[RoofTops]

...the explicit advice given was apiguard in autumn OA in Jan without exception. I hadn't been aware that this treatment regime was so 'approved'.

You will find that is the advice given by most bee inspectors and is the regime followed by virtually all of the beekeepers I know. Other parts of the country, especially further north, may vary but here in resistant mite land it is de rigueur. I also know a few using Apivar which is supposed to be very effective but it can only be legally used with a prescription of a vet.

The problem with this Forum is there are a small number of very active contributors who keep their bees using methods which suit them but which are almost unique to them. Because they jump in and give their comments so frequently you would be forgiven for thinking what they are suggesting is in any way mainstream.

Take OA trickling as a good example. I know a bee farmer with 3,000 colonies who gives them all OA by trickling every winter. It doesn't kill his bees and if it didn't work he wouldn't do it. His 3,000 colonies and 25+ plus year experience is several times larger than the sum total of the experience of those who you will find loudly decrying OA on this Forum. Finman's "2 hive beekeepers".

Who do you believe? In truth I don't think anyone here knows everything, so don't be mislaid by what a few of the regulars say. Some of them are a little odd but we cherish them as it would be boring if everyone had the same view.

And for what is is worth, thymol is very widely used and although some report queens going off lay I have never seen this. The generally accepted efficiency of thymol when used in something like Apiguard is around 90% but the problem is that is not enough. Even 10% of mites left behind will multiply and the colony may not come though into the following spring. This is why a winter treatment of OA is required.

If you are able to accurately determine what the mite levels are in your colonies, and counting mite drop is not reliable, then you can perhaps miss out the winter treatment, but as advice to beginners, the "thymol followed by OA trickle" is very good advice and if followed will give your bees a fighting chance of getting through their first winter.

Now I'm sure I've said all this before somewhere....

 

[mbc]

You will find that is the advice given by most bee inspectors and is the regime followed by virtually all of the beekeepers I know. Other parts of the country, especially further north, may vary but here in resistant mite land it is de rigueur. I also know a few using Apivar which is supposed to be very effective but it can only be legally used with a prescription of a vet.

The problem with this Forum is there are a small number of very active contributors who keep their bees using methods which suit them but which are almost unique to them. Because they jump in and give their comments so frequently you would be forgiven for thinking what they are suggesting is in any way mainstream.

Take OA trickling as a good example. I know a bee farmer with 3,000 colonies who gives them all OA by trickling every winter. It doesn't kill his bees and if it didn't work he wouldn't do it. His 3,000 colonies and 25+ plus year experience is several times larger than the sum total of the experience of those who you will find loudly decrying OA on this Forum. Finman's "2 hive beekeepers".

Who do you believe? In truth I don't think anyone here knows everything, so don't be mislaid by what a few of the regulars say. Some of them are a little odd but we cherish them as it would be boring if everyone had the same view.

And for what is is worth, thymol is very widely used and although some report queens going off lay I have never seen this. The generally accepted efficiency of thymol when used in something like Apiguard is around 90% but the problem is that is not enough. Even 10% of mites left behind will multiply and the colony may not come though into the following spring. This is why a winter treatment of OA is required.

If you are able to accurately determine what the mite levels are in your colonies, and counting mite drop is not reliable, then you can perhaps miss out the winter treatment, but as advice to beginners, the "thymol followed by OA trickle" is very good advice and if followed will give your bees a fighting chance of getting through their first winter.

Now I'm sure I've said all this before somewhere....

 

[Black Comb]

The problem with this Forum is there are a small number of very active contributors who keep their bees using methods which suit them but which are almost unique to them. Because they jump in and give their comments so frequently you would be forgiven for thinking what they are suggesting is in any way mainstream.
.

Well said

 

[oliver90owner]

The problem with this Forum is

It is not a problem with the forum. It is a problem where new beeks are told 'this is the only way' , 'this is what you MUST do', etc, etc, etc. Probably told to put matchsticks under the crownboard, too. Leave feed holes open all winter and a load of other old clap trap, too.

Why can peoplle not just get it into their heads that there are alternatives. OK apiguard (ugh) and oxalic in Jan might be the most popular route, but there is a great deal of difference in telling students that is the only way and informing them that is the most popular method RECOMMENDED. It just sucks, when people do that - and that is what my post referred too.

If some had their way, TBHs would be banned. Police state arriving.

There are other ways. Ask Hivemaker. He runs more than a few and does not follow that REGIME.

One colony lost (and not to varroa) in the past 5 years, and yet to confirm one lost this winter (but I have my suspicions). OK, I do not run 3000 colonies and if I did, I would obviously need a different regime to my present system. It would likely not include regular oxalic acid trickling and most certainly would not include apiguard.

Neither 20 colonies, nor 200, need that method - but they do need treating (no argument from me on that one), but there are some (an even smaller group) who cope with varroa without chemical treatments being necessary, at all, on a routine basis.

I simply don't like sensible minorities being trampled underfoot by big brother.

And this from someone who was treating with oxalic acid long before the regulatory bodies came round to accepting it's use as a varroacide. I still remember my local bee inspector telling me I should not be doing that (treating with oxalic) at all. How things change....

 

[For want of a better word]

I am happy to go along with all the thoughts expressed on varroa treatment.

Despite dear ol' Finmans concerns that I have fried my brain... I will continue to vaporise OA with my Varox kit... when the brood is not extant I hope!
And use Apiguarrd in the autumn and feed thymolated syrup

back to my alchemists cave to check out my latest bait sausage recipe!!!

 

[drstitson]

without siding with the pro or con OA lobbies - getting back to the OP - if you were wanting/needing to treat with OA in winter then that should've been 7+ weeks ago. most/all hives will now have brood present, rendering OA somewhat pointless (cost/benefit wise since varroa in brood not touched but bees damaged). better now to wait til spring and use other methods of IPM.

 

[Karol]

Just out of interest, is honey tested for oxalic acid residues?

 

[Red Bee]

The problem with this Forum is

It is not a problem with the forum. It is a problem where new beeks are told 'this is the only way' , 'this is what you MUST do', etc, etc, etc. Probably told to put matchsticks under the crownboard, too. Leave feed holes open all winter and a load of other old clap trap, too.

Why can peoplle not just get it into their heads that there are alternatives. OK apiguard (ugh) and oxalic in Jan might be the most popular route, but there is a great deal of difference in telling students that is the only way and informing them that is the most popular method RECOMMENDED. It just sucks, when people do that - and that is what my post referred too.

If some had their way, TBHs would be banned. Police state arriving.

There are other ways. Ask Hivemaker. He runs more than a few and does not follow that REGIME.

One colony lost (and not to varroa) in the past 5 years, and yet to confirm one lost this winter (but I have my suspicions). OK, I do not run 3000 colonies and if I did, I would obviously need a different regime to my present system. It would likely not include regular oxalic acid trickling and most certainly would not include apiguard.

Neither 20 colonies, nor 200, need that method - but they do need treating (no argument from me on that one), but there are some (an even smaller group) who cope with varroa without chemical treatments being necessary, at all, on a routine basis.

I simply don't like sensible minorities being trampled underfoot by big brother.

And this from someone who was treating with oxalic acid long before the regulatory bodies came round to accepting it's use as a varroacide. I still remember my local bee inspector telling me I should not be doing that (treating with oxalic) at all. How things change....

Maybe you could do a sticky & tell us how you manage varroa?

I'd like to read it. I'd rather not use chemicals.

 

[mbc]

Just out of interest, is honey tested for oxalic acid residues?

I know of a commercial beekeeper who treats with oxalic many times through the season ( even when there are supers on and the bees are collecting honey ) and he had his honey tested, and it was well within the MRL ( maximum residue limit ) for oxalic acid.
I believe trading standards and the VMD test honey for all sorts.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Maybe you could do a sticky & tell us how you manage varroa?

I'd like to read it. I'd rather not use chemicals.

 

[thundercat]

My Two Pence

We had a very low mite drop after treating with Apistan (resistant mites?) in the autumn. However, we a very noticeable mite drop when we treated with Oxalic acid in late Jan. It's hard to say whether we would have had the same impact if we had treated with something other than OA in Jan... That is, any treatment would have resulted in a big drop, simply because the varroa population was large, not because the product was more effective.

 

[RoofTops]

I am not aware of any other treatment you could use effectively in January other than OA. However, you might have seen an even larger drop had you treated in early Jan.

The fact that you had a large drop does suggest your mites have resistance. There are tests you can run to determine this but your local bee inpector should be your first port of call.

 

[Onge]

Maybe you could do a sticky & tell us how you manage varroa?

I'd like to read it. I'd rather not use chemicals.

 

[oliver90owner]

Maybe you could do a sticky & tell us how you manage varroa?

Not going to happen. Too many variables.

I happen to use my head and decide what needs doing and when it is appropriate.

The treatments/manipulations would be based on circumstances - and who said I do not use chemicals? Of course I do at times.

I can assure you there are no instances where the processes are anything other than simple and I do not use anything that has nasty residues - just the normal, easily available varroacides. I also have oxalic acid (bought enough for umpteen years at the time and will probably finish using it for cleaning brassware or something similar).

I have now lost two over-wintering colonies in the past five years - not yet checked for the reason for this winter loss, and the other was not varroa related, so why should I risk my bees by trickling with oxalic in the depths of winter? They obviously don't need it. They are better left alone. There are other ways to control the varroa and I am prepared to use any one of those options.

Sorry, but if the rest of the world is unable to cope without recourse to oxalic acid trickling that is not my concern. I feel sorry for those that might lose their colonies, when otherwise they may have pulled through.

I am not suggesting that, overall, oxalic is not the best route for the rest of the world - it may well be that most of the rest of the world are unable to cope with varroa any other way. I happen to do it quite easily without recourse to oxalic (or apiguard, either).

 

[oliver90owner]

The fact that you had a large drop does suggest your mites have resistance.

Resistance to what? Thymol? More likely the apiguard treatment was ineffective.

I am still awaiting some average efficacies for Apiguard under average UK conditions. Strikes me that they are not available? In which case the figures quoted by some may well be more appropriate to Spain or Egypt. If not, why?

 

[Hivemaker.]

I am not aware of any other treatment you could use effectively in January

Apivar is still very effective in this country i believe,and not temperature dependant.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The fact that you had a large drop does suggest your mites have resistance.

Resistance to what? Thymol? More likely the apiguard treatment was ineffective.

I am still awaiting some average efficacies for Apiguard under average UK conditions. Strikes me that they are not available? In which case the figures quoted by some may well be more appropriate to Spain or Egypt. If not, why?

Apistan not apiguard - that may explain it

We had a very low mite drop after treating with Apistan (resistant mites?) in the autumn. However, we a very noticeable mite drop when we treated with Oxalic acid in late Jan.

 

[Cazza]

Maybe you could do a sticky & tell us how you manage varroa?

Not going to happen. Too many variables.

I happen to use my head and decide what needs doing and when it is appropriate.

).[/QUOTE
With the greatest respect, dangling a management not involving Apiguard or Oxalic in your posts and then refusing to give any pointers regarding it is like telling a joke and then refusing to tell the punch line!
Cazza

 

[For want of a better word]

it is like telling a joke and then refusing to tell the punch line!

Two old men sitting in deckchairs admiring the bees- too-ing and fro-ing on a sunny day in their apiary....
One said to the other " It is really nice out "
The other replied "But..........................!

 

[Cazza]

it is like telling a joke and then refusing to tell the punch line!

Two old men sitting in deckchairs admiring the bees- too-ing and fro-ing on a sunny day in their apiary....
One said to the other " It is really nice out "
The other replied "But..........................!

But what.... Aaaaargh!
I rest my case.
Cazza