Oxalic Acid now - pros / cons?

[Luminos]

I thought the punchline was:
"Put it away, there's a policeman"

 

[oliver90owner]

Apistan not apiguard - that may explain it

OOPs, sorree! Didn't read it properly. Not expecting anyone to be using Apistan as a standard autumn (or spring, for that matter) treatment. I wish people would just leave it alone except for emergencies!

But still waiting for Apiguard efficacies for the typical UK user.

RAB

 

[Hivemaker.]

But still waiting for Apiguard efficacies for the typical UK user.
RAB

I found it to be quite ineffective, but have not seen any research as to its "supposed" efficiency in the UK.

 

[oliver90owner]

With the greatest respect, dangling a management not involving Apiguard or Oxalic in your posts and then refusing to give any pointers regarding it is like telling a joke and then refusing to tell the punch line!


Not at all. There is no set regime. Get it? Read the DEFRA publication on varroa control. There is absolutely loads to go at. Just use your head and decide what is best at the time and when it is required. How simple can it get? I know it is simpler to pour oxalic acid over the bees in winter, whether or not they need it, just in case, etc, etc because that is what it amounts to. How can I put it simpler than 'dummy doing as it is told'.

The only difference is that I use thymol in a slightly different way to most (and that includes Hivemaker) and would not expect the 'rest of the world that is incapable of thinking' to make the required simple decisions. Following the instructions on the Apiguard packets/sachets/boxes seems to be too much for some of our posters, let alone interpreting my decisions.

But, there we go, the simple fact is that you don't have to trickle oxalic acid in the middle of winter, every winter.

 

[Finman]

.
Let's put it this way: What advantage you get if you do not use Oxalic trickling....

(don't say saving time if you hang on forum 100 hours a year)

 

[oliver90owner]

Let's put it this way: What advantage you get if you do not use Oxalic trickling....

Advantages

Bees are left in peace

Waste of time for killing very few mites.

Avoid extra risk to the colony (small, maybe, but why take that risk if I don't need to?).

No worries over just a few mites.

Less chemicals used in the hive.

Overwintering bees will live longer and there will not be any immediate mortality due to the treatment (fairly obvious, that one).

More nurse bees in the spring to accelerate the expansion.

Any marginal clusters are not pushed 'over the edge'.

Saves me wasting about 4.5p per colony to achieve very little.

I can stay warm, in the house, at that time of the year.

No risk of breaking ankle (treading in rabbit hole or slipping on ice).

Queens do not get multiple doses of oxalic acid.

I don't have to spend several days on the forum to be able to work out how to make up the treatment? Ha ha ha.

Disadvantages?

I lose a colony due to the treatment. Perhaps more than one.

I am just one more beekeeper just following the rest of the sheep.

I would still attack any infestations later in the year and still be looking for any problem which may arrive from elsewhere.




'nuff?

 

[Finman]

.
WOW------

Most of "facts" in that list are carbage but it is not a problem.
It is better to cultivate button mushrooms in that list.

Yes, it makes nuff allergy.

.

 

[RoofTops]

Priceless nonsense.

Meanwhile in the real world beekeepers are treating tens of thousands of colonies and...the colonies don't die.

Mr Tractor will one day tell us how he does it. He has never done so up to now as far as I can remember.

 

[oliver90owner]

Mr Tractor will one day tell us how he does it.

Read my post!

There is no set regime. Get it? Read the DEFRA publication on varroa control.

the colonies don't die.

If you believe that you are ........ .

Some will die, that is for sure. The way the sheep trickling advocates put it across is that is: 'There is less risk of not losing the colony than by not trickling.'

Lesser risk for who? Those that have 1000s of hives, so they do it automatically (simple operatives? and saves time) and those that are unable, for whatever reason, to be able to ensure colony survival and low varroa infestations.

I frankly don't care about killing the last mite - there would be more. The main reason for trickling is to, hopefully, have an easier time in the spring and early summer, or to make amends for a lousy apiguard efficacy (for whatever reason).

Beekeeping for dummies does keep coming to mind - don't think whether it is needed or not, just do it. Just throw more chemicals into the hive whether needed or not.

Can you lot (that keep 'harping on') not get it into your heads that I do have oxalic and would use it if I decided it was necessary. Most times It is not. Not in the last 5 years. Even Wally 'what was his name' in Beecraft last year, or the year before, admitted it was probably not necessary 90% of the time.

Go on, carry on, do it for your peace of mind. I don't care. I don't need to do it every year, automatically, like a sheep following the flock. I can think for myself. Clear?

So just get real. You lot do it just as a precaution most of the time. Admit it.

 

[Black Comb]

The regional or seasonal bee inspectors usually give us an early season talk on varroa (amongst other diseases). IPM is the preferred way, it is up to you the beekeeper to decide the most appropriate treatment in the circumstances. As well as Apiguard (or ApiLife Var) and oxalic, shook swarm (with removal of that one brood frame you left in - after about 1 week) and drone brood culling are discussed.

They are well trained and both have been in the job many years. They also use oxalic to treat any swarms.

Oxalic should not be used twice on the same bees, not really a problem unless you keep you queens more than one year. I have 2 of these and did not oxalic them this time, so I will monitor and compare these colonies over the season.

I think new beeks should follow the bee inspectors advice for the first few years and then make up their own minds when they have gained the experience (and perhaps the spare colonies) to be confident of trying something else.

In my opinion varroa kills far more bees than oxalic.

Just read the above post, yes I do it as a precaution, will gradually try out not doing some in the coming years as my experience (and colonies - "spares" ) builds up.

 

[mbc]

In my opinion varroa kills far more bees than oxalic.

And this forum is the only place I've come across widespread discouragement of a winter oxalic treatment, very odd advice to confused beginners IMHO

 

[Red Bee]

).[/QUOTE
With the greatest respect, dangling a management not involving Apiguard or Oxalic in your posts and then refusing to give any pointers regarding it is like telling a joke and then refusing to tell the punch line!
Cazza[/QUOTE]

 

[Finman]

Oxalic should not be used twice on the same bees, not really a problem unless you keep you queens more than one year. .

This "fact" has been arised among forum diskussions.

I have claryfeid many times here that

-nowadays oxalic acid treatment twice a winter has become routine.
In Finland guys treat in November and in March after cleansing flight

- Queen handled with oxalic acid twice a years achieve 4 years age like other queens

- why not twice: because the mite fall happens during next 4 weeks and it is very effective. No idea to put douple dose in short time. And then like in UK brood break is over.

 

[Finman]

Read the DEFRA publication on varroa control.[/I].

DEFRA has made not a single varroa research. It did not participated to European varroa group even if place there was there.


.

Some will die, that is for sure. .

If you measure too strong acid content, that will happen. Thousands more die for varroa.

Last winter came too early and many our beeks ciuld not make OA trickling. This winter we have had huge dead out since the Autumn.

If you measure correctly acid, it will not kill a single hive.


.

The way the sheep trickling advocates put it across is that is: 'There is less risk of not losing the colony than by not trickling.'.

WHAT A RUBBISH!

.

I frankly don't care about killing the last mite - there would be more. .

I have shown here many times calculations that if you have 10 mites alive after winter, the critical limit 1000 mites will be reached in September

"keep the mite number under 1000 " - what is that!


Oliver, what is your idea to deliver that carbage. Who needs it?

I know that the British want to make things differnet way but I did not know that they reject so clearly the knowledge from over seas.

DEFRA DEFRA DERFA

BEE INSPECTOR BEE INSPECTOR

PROF NANETTI PFF NATETTI developed trikcling 1997 ...............15 years ago!

EUROPEAN VARRO GROUP; EUROPEAN VARROA GROUP SINCE 1998
.

 

[Hivemaker.]

This winter we have had huge dead out since the Autumn.
.

Why, what are you doing wrong.

 

[oliver90owner]

Will those that do not understand the message just shut up and stop harping on? I have never said oxalic should never be used. I would use it if necessary.

It is those that drone on, saying it MUST be used that I take issue with. It is plainly obvious that varroa can be controlled without recourse to oxalic trickling under a lot of circumstances.

It is used because it is convenient and kills mites. Just that a lot of the time there are very few to worry about.

It is used because even new beeks should be able to do it. 'Monkey see, monkey do' - no need to think about anything.

It is used because your average beekeeper is deemed unable to control the varroa aequately by other means.

All I say is that it is not a prerequisite of beekeeping, you don't need to lose colonies to varroa, whether using oxalic or not.

Ignoring the large scale users, who do it as part of the busy schedule (whether required or not -just like the US beeks who administer all sorts, to all colonies) leaves those with a few colonies, who should have the time to seek out and use effective alternatives, if they so wish.

I am not advising against using it as mbc seems to indicate. I am just saying varroa control can be done without dosing your bees every winter with oxalic acid. Seems to me that the decision - of whether or not treatment is needed - is irrelevant to those that advocate 'must do', or is deemed beyond the capability of the majority of beekeepers.

Your attempts to discredit the alternatives are laughable. Not everyone should be classed as dummies - there are some out there that can actually think for themselves, given the encouragement.

You carry on doing it year in, year out. I will do it only if needed. OK?

 

[Finman]

Why, what are you doing wrong.

Normally we get permanent snow in December. A year ago Winter came 1,5 month earlier. There was heavy frost and half meter snow on roofs when it should be black groung in nature..

It mostly happens (90%) that early snow melts away as it did not
White Christmas is rare here too because our seas are open in that time.

All old facts proved to be worthless and so too big mite load remained in hives.

 

[Finman]

.
Oliver. You need not explain what to do with oxalic. I only wish that you clear it to yourself. No one else need your strange explanations. They are not from this world.


Bee deseases are serious issue. It cannot be bottomless quell of jokes and inspiration source of personal ideas.

A half world use it with great succes. It is best stuff ever invented.

You and your Defra letters. Luckly the rest of world does not know them.
They have used trickling over 10 years and they are happy.

What ever stuff you use, there are allways problems and losses.

SUCH IS LIFE!

 

[Hivemaker.]

That is sad to lose so many colonys Finman, down to unpredictable weather.
I used oxalic myself for two winters, out of the twenty years that we have had mites, around 840 hives treated over those two winters, none for a few years now though,and no losses at all due to varroa,but our winters are soft compared to Finland.

 

[oliver90owner]

I used oxalic myself ...., none for a few years now though,and no losses at all due to varroa,

Amazing! So I am correct. It can be done.

Finman,

You need to take note of that. Perhaps you are the crazy one, not from this world.

I have never said there are no problems. You assume too much. Just nothing that cannot be overcome quite simply. Nothing really complicated in beekeeping, only recognising what is needed and when it is needed.

It is best stuff ever invented.

I agree, it does clean up brassware very well. Someday I may need to use some on my bees. Until the time comes, I will resist the temptation to just follow the rest of the flock.