Open Mesh Floors

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In the times of yore I knew a colony that lived 3 winters in an upturned wooden Corona bottle crate.

The crate had been hung on a spike stuck in the hedge and therefore had no bottom at all.

Happy bees open floor.
 
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Yep............and we, the beekeepers, are guilty of thinking we can design in for every need.......even needs they do not have but our anthropomorphism leads us to think they do.
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Perhaps some clarification on the target of the anthropomorphism putdown?


If you did the laminar flow air resistance calculations you would see that bees attempting to push air into the entrance of a hive that has an open mesh floor are wasting their effort... since the resistance into the hive is much greater than resistance out through the floor

The physics of airflow applies to both bees and men...

my goal is to sieve out the actual knowledge from the handed down custom and practice... as there is usually a fair amount of spoil with the gems...

hence measure, calculate and compare trees and differing hive types quantitively and not through metaphor and conjecture. Then use that information to make better observations of bees behavior
 
Perhaps some clarification on the target of the anthropomorphism putdown?

The targets (multiple) are the majority of 'good ideas' that are brought out as the latest advance in hive design. or the latest 'method' or adaptation. They sound like a good idea but are designed with a human perspective on what the bees need.

As ventilation is todays theme............

Can be as simple as the much adored and equally much ridiculed 'matchsticks' opinion.

Can be as complex and expensive (sometimes cripplingly so) as the fan assisted ventilation tops from Canada with solar panels........or Happykeeper floors..............

The costs and efforts far outweigh any slight, if indeed any at all (benefits are often only noted in the developers own tests and not reproduceable elsewhere).

Even today the list is almost endless of things that are nothing more than marginal, or ineffective, or needless gadgetry, or even actually counter productive. Yet many still have their followers despite their being no evidence, outwith that of the originator/vendor, to support the use.

Go back into the history of hive design and the list could fill a small library. I was told by someone who should know better than me that there are around 70 hive designs in use in the UK (dont ask, I do not know the list, even a fraction of it) whereas most countries have under 10. Clive de Bruyn told one of my eager and deep thinking young staff who was full of bright ideas 'just for heaveans sake do NOT design a new hive.......its the LAST thing we need.'
This was funny as the day before the young man had come to me with the most amazing set of drawings for a hive held together by dowels the you removed, the box walls fell away, and the combs inside had no wooden margins and the contents then just dropped into a specially designed heather press style crusher.

Nothing personal on the floors front.......BUT........the bees will cope just fine so long as they get plentiful availability of air. Lack of ventilation can be a big issue especially in summer flows, but apart from that they are perfectly good at doing their own air movement. OMFs work. There are no issues with the bees struggling to get air flow going the way they want, and a lot of the ideas of it being excessive miss the point that for much of the season the air exchange is mostly by diffusion and convection rather than any great need for fixed pattern air currents. We, and by that I mean ALL of us, can be guilty of overanalysing things.

For anyone looking for a further response on this or any other thread, I am just leaving now (4AM) for Doncaster for the BFA Spring Meeting, and will not be back at the computer now until Tuesday (Monday night if I boot it up the road).
 
If you did the laminar flow air resistance calculations you would see that bees attempting to push air into the entrance of a hive that has an open mesh floor are wasting their effort... since the resistance into the hive is much greater than resistance out through the floor

Just re-read that bit and had to add something before I go..........the entrance or the mesh floor are actually irrelevant.

The bees forced airflow is fanning assisted in channels up and down through the combs. The bees use the most convenient air source to get that going. They draw from the bottom of the combs (usually the centre ones) right up through the hive in a vertical column, and the air descends, again by fanning or just because it has been displaced, at the sides. I have seen some colonies do this in reverse, up at the edges and down at the centre.

The idea that the entrance is important in this is only the case if it is the only air source, then they HAVE to fan at the door to force the air exchange, and yes, if it HAD to be from there then an omf could be a problem. But it is not thus. The bees get the air to the combs any way they can, and an omf, or even an open base of some kind, or indeed in attics etc no base at all, then taking air in through the entrance is almost entirely redundant. There are easier routes. The bees use them.

From our own experience..........the worst thing we do for ventilation is to change spacings as we go up the hive. Single spacing throughout actually makes a difference as vertical ventilation channels are not interrupted or compromised. Manley shallows over Hoffman broods is a perfect example, in our operation its then 10 over 11 in the BS boxes.........centre air channel thus impeded.........add in the possibility of a home made box and compromised bee space then the problem gets very noticeable.

Its conventional and many of us have it............but it also could be wrong.
 
Perhaps some clarification on the target of the anthropomorphism putdown?


If you did the laminar flow air resistance calculations you would see that bees attempting to push air into the entrance of a hive that has an open mesh floor are wasting their effort... since the resistance into the hive is much greater than resistance out through the floor

The physics of airflow applies to both bees and men...

my goal is to sieve out the actual knowledge from the handed down custom and practice... as there is usually a fair amount of spoil with the gems...

hence measure, calculate and compare trees and differing hive types quantitively and not through metaphor and conjecture. Then use that information to make better observations of bees behavior

OK so you obviously know what the velocity of the air current is on leaving the bee's wings AND how far that velocity is maintained and what the velocity is that is required to, reach all the parts other beers cannot reach :cool:

No, in all seriousness what are those velocities.

Of course for communication it might be sound that is being created .......
 
OK so you obviously know what the velocity of the air current is on leaving the bee's wings AND how far that velocity is maintained and what the velocity is that is required to, reach all the parts other beers cannot reach :cool:

No, in all seriousness what are those velocities.

Of course for communication it might be sound that is being created .......

if you look closer at the problem you can find out you dont actually need to know the value of the velocity

Give it a try

i
 
if you look closer at the problem you can find out you dont actually need to know the value of the velocity

Give it a try

i

I have and you definitely need to know the velocity of the airflow leaving the bee's wings.

As you don't know, it will make calculations ....
 
I have and you definitely need to know the velocity of the airflow leaving the bee's wings.

And how many bees are flapping their wings,whether they are flapping them fast or slow,or a mixture of both...and if any are stood sideways to one that is flapping,thus deflecting the airflow from the flapping bee...so many variations that need to be measured and logged.
 
:iagree:

And mostly we have to accept that the bees really are saying b***** off we'll sort it out.
 
I have and you definitely need to know the velocity of the airflow leaving the bee's wings.

As you don't know, it will make calculations ....
to solve this problem its a matter of considering resistance to airflow not the airflow its self. if it was electricty it would the ratio of the ohms not the value of the amps.
 
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How do you work out the resistace to airflow if there is no airflow.


You do the calcs at the limits(high and low) of what you think air flow could possibly be and see if its true at both limits. (remember we discussed in another thread possible ranges of flow)
 
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Lets face it. The bees only need a hefty airflow when reducing nectar to honey. Or locally within the hive to lower brood nest temperatures at high summer temperatures (which are not so very regular in the UK).

Not all the nectar will be in the super immediately above the brood nest (the 'natural' situation) as some beeks under-super and others top-super. So I don't think it matters a jot about ventilation as long as it is available for the bees. Has anyone ever seen a melt-down other than in a closed up hive on a hot summer day? Doubt it.

The one thing that needs to be avoided is trying to dictate to the bees how it should be done (applying top ventilation). The bees know best, so why not just leave it to them and be done with it. They will do it the most efficient way, whatever the useless calculations turn up.

Also temperature and humidity are other factors of which the bees are aware, and so no humans can possibly attempt to be be prescriptive of air ciculation requirements for all scenarios. An irelevant waste of time, effort and attention, in my book.
 
The bees know best, so why not just leave it to them and be done with it. They will do it the most efficient way, whatever the useless calculations turn up.

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If the bees know best then why do we insist on giving them a mesh floor ? The calculations are intended to illustrate what dramatic intervention a mesh floor is and that their properties may not be as commonly percieved .Thus I contend are calcuations are not useless as they are real knowledge to effect of mesh floors, as opposed to conjecture, analogue, and custom.
 
If the bees know best then why do we insist on giving them a mesh floor ?

There are several good reasons, none of them remotely connected to forced air flows.
 
I might be wrong here, but unless there is somewhere for the air to flow, then there will be no air flow.

ie, There is no air flow in an upturned biscuit tin with the lid off.
 
Silly Bee, if you put a fan inside an upturned biscuit tin (even a biscuit tin with the lid on!) and power it up, I can assure you there would be an airflow. However, a fairly useless analogy to a hive - unless it is one with lots of bees confined for a lengthy period on a hot day....On this topic, I reckon just two bees apply more common sense than one calculator.
 
Has anyone asked the bees what they prefer OMF or solid, perhaps they are saying thank god we don't need to do so much fanning these days those stupid solid floors caused us a lot of work
 
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