OK to use 2:1 syrup left from last year

[BCBEE]

Hi
I made some 2:1 syup last year but went a bit mad and have about 7-8 ltrs left. Will it be OK to dilute this with 33% water after heating and re-use as 1:1 in the spring. Theres no signs of fermentation. It was heated to 80deg for 5 mins when made.

Thanks
Phill

 

[herefordshirehoney]

It's the HMF levels you need to be careful of, if you didnt add thymol it may be best to disregard. Hopefully someone else will clarify this though .

 

[Erichalfbee]

So about a fivers worth of sugar?
Throw it away

 

[Little John]

It's just plain 2:1 sugar syrup ? No reason then why it should have changed it's chemical composition providing it hasn't fermented - which is highly unlikely at that concentration.

No need to heat it again - just add water when the time comes to use it - and shake well.

LJ

I thought it might be useful to elaborate - as there's clearly some ignorance regarding this:

Hydrolysis

Hydrolysis breaks the glycosidic bond converting sucrose into glucose and fructose. Hydrolysis is, however, so slow that solutions of sucrose can sit for years with negligible change. If the enzyme sucrase is added, however, the reaction will proceed rapidly. Hydrolysis can also be accelerated with acids, such as cream of tartar or lemon juice, both weak acids. Likewise, gastric acidity converts sucrose to glucose and fructose during digestion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sucrose

 

[For want of a better word]

80deg for 5 mins when made.

Is that Pasteurised / sterilised ???... bottled apple juice is treated in a similar fashion and keeps for ages

 

[Midland Beek]

It's just plain 2:1 sugar syrup ? No reason then why it should have changed it's chemical composition providing it hasn't fermented - which is highly unlikely at that concentration.

No need to heat it again - just add water when the time comes to use it - and shake well.

LJ

I thought it might be useful to elaborate - as there's clearly some ignorance regarding this:

Hydrolysis

Hydrolysis breaks the glycosidic bond converting sucrose into glucose and fructose. Hydrolysis is, however, so slow that solutions of sucrose can sit for years with negligible change. If the enzyme sucrase is added, however, the reaction will proceed rapidly. Hydrolysis can also be accelerated with acids, such as cream of tartar or lemon juice, both weak acids. Likewise, gastric acidity converts sucrose to glucose and fructose during digestion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sucrose

Someone doesn't know their beekeeping. I wouldn't trust this syrup because of the HMF risk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxymethylfurfural

 

[Little John]

Someone doesn't know their beekeeping. I wouldn't trust this syrup because of the HMF risk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxymethylfurfural

Seems that someone doesn't know their basic organic chemistry !

Perhaps you would kindly tell me where the fructose has come from, in order to create the HMF ?

Without the necessary enyzme or acid to hydrolyse the sucrose to glucose and fructose, or caramelisation (which requires a temperature of 160 deg C), all that exists is plain, simple sucrose syrup.

I keep my excess 2:1 syrup in the freezer over-winter, but that's only because I added ascorbic acid (to lower the pH) during initial mixing. That could certainly create HMF in time, but freezing over-winter renders it safe enough.

The OP has not mentioned the introduction of any additive which could cause the formation of HMF.

LJ

 

[BCBEE]

Seems that someone doesn't know their basic organic chemistry !

Perhaps you would kindly tell me where the fructose has come from, in order to create the HMF ?

Without the necessary enyzme or acid to hydrolyse the sucrose to glucose and fructose, or caramelisation (which requires a temperature of 160 deg C), all that exists is plain, simple sucrose syrup.

I keep my excess 2:1 syrup in the freezer over-winter, but that's only because I added ascorbic acid (to lower the pH) during initial mixing. That could certainly create HMF in time, but freezing over-winter renders it safe enough.

The OP has not mentioned the introduction of any additive which could cause the formation of HMF.

LJ

Hi and thanks to all for the replies.

I didnt add anything to the syrup just water and sugar.

yes i could of course throw it away but why ? if there was some reason why i should like it may give the bees something like dysentry or similar then yes i would without hesitataion, but i would hate to just throw stuff away for no reason. Thats why I asked the question. Its sitting in an outside covered passage on a stone floor so its kept quite cold and away from pests etc so it seems fine at the moment.

Thanks again
Phill

 

[herefordshirehoney]

Hi and thanks to all for the replies.

I didnt add anything to the syrup just water and sugar.

yes i could of course throw it away but why ? if there was some reason why i should like it may give the bees something like dysentry or similar then yes i would without hesitataion, but i would hate to just throw stuff away for no reason. Thats why I asked the question. Its sitting in an outside covered passage on a stone floor so its kept quite cold and away from pests etc so it seems fine at the moment.

Thanks again
Phill

Seriously get rid of it why risk a colony to save a few quid. You have no way of testing the HMF levels so why risk it as if the levels are high you could risk the colony.

 

[Goran]

Use that syrup for wasp traps this year ( of course with some vinegar to keep away bees from it).

 

[Finman]

Someone doesn't know their beekeeping. I wouldn't trust this syrup because of the HMF risk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxymethylfurfural

According that syrup should make the same in hive frames =false

.
Syrup is easy to give the hive as emergency feeding when you pour the syrup into combs. Them put those combs under the wintering box and bees lift the syrup to the brood box. It takes one week in winter.

 

[Little John]

Seriously get rid of it why risk a colony to save a few quid. You have no way of testing the HMF levels so why risk it as if the levels are high you could risk the colony.

Why test for something which will not exist if acid or enyzmatic hydrolysis has not taken place ?

You may as well test for hydrogen cyanide levels and those of a thousand other chemicals which have just as much chance of being present.

By any chance are you confusing the storage of plain sugar syrup with Oxalic Acid + Sucrose mix - in which HMF will certainly be formed in storage due to the Oxalic Acid causing acid hydrolysis ? But even then, a 6 month shelf life is often given. A rough and ready guide as to whether HMF is present in significant amounts is whether the solution has turned amber.

If in doubt, throw it away (the Oxalic Acid mix, NOT the plain syrup).

LJ

 

[Little John]

Finman makes a good point - even without the benefit of a knowledge of organic chemistry, you should still be able to reason that: as sugar syrup is stored in the combs over winter, and often 'contaminated' with honey (which is slightly acidic, and will thus cause a very slight hydrolysis) it remains fit for consumption.

LJ

 

[itma]

If its not going mouldy or fizzing, then it isn't fermenting. Congratulate yourself on your effective sterilisation efforts!

If its as colourless as the day it was made, don't worry about HMF.

It's the HMF levels you need to be careful of, if you didnt add thymol it may be best to disregard. Hopefully someone else will clarify this though .

Thymol should act against fermentation, not HMF formation.

 

[Into the lions den]

Why test for something which will not exist if acid or enyzmatic hydrolysis has not taken place ?
LJ

I think the point back at the start of the thread about the hmf was that the syrup had been made at 80degC. At that temperature hmf forms rapidly, and once the reaction has begun it tends to then continue, albeit very slowly, at room temp.

Its probably ok.....BUT....if in doubt chuck it out. You are talking about something worth at most the value of a couple of pounds of honey, and if it even did very slight harm to your colony you can easily lose that.

Any slight smell of fermentation then just bin it, especially at the time of year when the bees are not flying freely. I would, if keeping it for use, not bother diluting it. Much is made of the differing concentrations of syrup. We just used the same one all year when we used to make syrup, with no ill effects.

 

[busybee53]

ITLD Glad you make the point about the strength of sugar solution. With the weather as it was last year and the need to feed in summer I could not decide if weak solution as used in spring was good, or strong solution to prevent starvation was better. In the end I mucked up the process and got something in between. Surely bees are adaptable and sometimes do well despite our best efforts. They seem to be able to cope with nectar of varying strengths, honeydew and even fondant. It just seems that at times we can make things a bit easier for them.

 

[Hombre]

It's not as if there wasn't any water available for the bees to dilute it to taste at the time . . .