Oh My God

[Michael Palmer]

Come and live in the UK... Nos da

We've considered it. Lovely place. Wonderful people. Far from home and the things we know. Far from my bees....

 

[Michael Palmer]

Stop the constant pushing of the message that guns = power.

I think this may be the key. Obviously we're not going to get rid of the guns. We have guns in our cabinet. A 30-30 Winchester model 94 deer rifle, a 22 rifle and pistol, a 38 pistol, a 30-40 krag from the first war, a 12 ga shotgun, my gr,gr aunt's old 17 ga. shotgun, and old flintlock. Oh, and my CO2 pellet gun from when I was a kid. We sometimes enjoy a shoot in the sand pit...targets.

But we taught our kids right. And now all of this killing. I don't know if it will ever end. Derek is right, and it will have to start with educating the youngest. Is it even possible when their parents are always on the ready to grab a gun to get the boogie man. Sad and scary.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

BUT - there are 7 times more vehicles, and 5 times more population in USA over the UK (Blame Google if I'm wrong...). By the law of ratios, they're doing very well on motoring death rates. Regardless of those numbers, why are you suggesting both items can't be be addressed concurrently? (I read somewhere recently that Volvo are working to make their cars so safe, there would not be a fatality in one - impossible obviously but a laudable objective)

Michael, I'm pleased that none of your family were hurt and of course I feel sorry for everyone involved in such terrible situations - motoring or gun related.

What to do about gun control? I wouldn't know where to start.

They should. It's the RATIO that's x3. My point is there should be more political noise about the lethal roads there and there isn't.

UK 1,700 road deaths. US 30,000. As they say at ball games; MAKE SOME NOISE.

 

[Tom Bick]

It's so easy to get a gun in the US it's not going to get any better unfortunately. Put this ease of getting a gun along with someone with perhaps an underlying mental health condition and a feeling of little or no hope or a future then.....There was a time all of these people who have decided to kill them selves did just that but more seem to want to go out with a few headlines. You could call them a sort of suicide bomber.

Knives are our problem. They are obviously not the same but a problem for us. A young man was stabbed and killed yesterday during the day in leafy Acton.

 

[B+.]

So I ask you all. What would you do?

Probably the same as you: worry about our kids.

Its not our place to recommend solutions to problems we really know nothing about (other than what we see on tv). Our country gets more and more like the US every day though, so I understand where you're coming from. Nobody is safe. We have incidents here too which, while infrequent, are irrational and dangerous.
I think all you can do is make your voice heard and speak out against those who would inflict their views on you. Isn't that what a democracy is?

 

[REDWOOD]

I know a guy who was refused a gun licence as he had just gone through a bad divorce but was granted one a year later, the same guy had a phone call from the licencing authorities last week who questioned the serial number on his gun as it was the same as another gun in the uk, turns out that the two guns were stamped with the same serial number in the factory. I think we have it right here and America has it wrong, you cannot compare statistics with road deaths they are two different things and both should be addressed separately. If one person dies from a gun shot then that's one to many.

 

[MartinL]

. . .
We have guns in our cabinet. A 30-30 Winchester model 94 deer rifle, a 22 rifle and pistol, a 38 pistol, a 30-40 krag from the first war, a 12 ga shotgun, my gr,gr aunt's old 17 ga. shotgun, and old flintlock. Oh, and my CO2 pellet gun from when I was a kid. We sometimes enjoy a shoot in the sand pit...targets. . . .

Yea, OK!

So that's a normal household in the Good old US of A?
You're more heavily armed than our local police station!

Think you've hit the nail on the head there!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Yea, OK!

So that's a normal household in the Good old US of A?
You're more heavily armed than our local police station!

Think you've hit the nail on the head there!

The usual clueless comment over here TBH
rather a conservative collection really IMHO.

 

[Michael Palmer]

Yea, OK!

So that's a normal household in the Good old US of A?
You're more heavily armed than our local police station!

Think you've hit the nail on the head there!

No, probably not the norm. But, many households have guns. Guns don't kill people. People do.

But, we've always had guns in America. Never had all this killing until recently.

I think part of the solution is to treat mental disorders as medical issues and not attach stigma to them. We need to make sure these mentally deranged people to seek and receive help...same as one would do for any medical issue. We keep seeing these shooters, known to have mental issues, purchasing guns.

 

[BeeJayBee]

..... Guns don't kill people. People do.

But, we've always had guns in America. Never had all this killing until recently.

I think part of the solution is to treat mental disorders as medical issues and not attach stigma to them. We need to make sure these mentally deranged people to seek and receive help...same as one would do for any medical issue. We keep seeing these shooters, known to have mental issues, purchasing guns.

I agree with you Michael, some people shouldn't be allowed to have guns but the trouble is that no matter how strict the laws are the nutters always seem to be able to get weapons, whilst the good-guys follow the rules.

I think it's a pity that UK gun laws have meant that sport shooters, the ones who compete in the Olympics etc, are no longer allowed to even practice in this country.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

But, we've always had guns in America. Never had all this killing until recently.

Are you sure the data support that, Michael?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

any fool can see that - there has been the odd case in the past but the frequency has increased just in the last couple of years i suppose increased road safety is to blame

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Now those are four VERY dangerous words. Not long ago there was a new expression in this area: "going postal". We need to tease the facts out of the news cycle.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Found the data and a good article. Will pop it up when my wired internet behaves.

 

[midnight sun]

Good...because all they do is sit on the side of the road all day, like vultures waiting to pounce on easy target motorists.

Erm! Had a ticket recently HM? LOL

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

OK so here are the data http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data .

And here is an interesting article on the subject. http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/CPRC-Mass-Shooting-Analysis-Bloomberg2.pdf

The key point though is these mass shootings are a TINY fraction of overall gun deaths.

 

[Michael Palmer]

The key point though is these mass shootings are a TINY fraction of overall gun deaths.

Interesting. Thank you. Can you find information on mass shootings from years before 1982? Growing up here, I still don't remember thous all happening before the Texas shooting in the 70s?

To me, the key point might be the number of shooters...on the first link...having "Prior signs of possible mental illness"...yes. And then "Weapons obtained legally"...yes.

How can someone with prior signs of mental illness, obtain a weapon legally?

Somebody isn't doing their job.

 

[Dusty Rhodes]

Somebody isn't doing their job.

The National Rifle Association is, though.
Just shows mental instability can be found in all sorts of places.

Dusty

 

[Michael Palmer]

The National Rifle Association is, though.
Just shows mental instability can be found in all sorts of places.

Dusty

Amen

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Actually, eny fule does noe on this one; mass killings of this sort have become a separate phenomenon in recent years; interesting Wired blog article here

http://www.wired.com/2012/12/are-mass-shootings-really-random-events-a-look-at-the-us-numbers/

And a good Guardian article here

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jul/21/colorado-shooting-james-holmes-history

BUT again, the real story of that Guardian article is that the numbers are TINY compared to other murder.

Going back to your question, Michael, I don't have data but yes, your idea that mass killings where lone psycho shoots up school, workplace, mall, church, etc., are a modern phenomenon seems to hold up. But think of the "modern" format and then look at the history of American massacres to see that definition is a bit artificial. As you well know, as well as the St Valentine's Day massacre etc, you hail from the land of the Colfax Massacre, the Wild West, Jesse James, "Indian" clearances and the like. There is a lot of gun crime, and always has been. And the mass availability of machine guns might be a driver of the fact that they are more often single-shooter than they were (in the days of the St Valentine's Day, Tommy guns were probably pretty narrowly held). But that is all controversial ground where I have no expertise.

Where I do have expertise is in filtering the data from the presentations. Other than on the very narrow modern definition there always has been a lot of gun crime. Actually, as the Guardian pointed out, it is decreasing. Mass killing is increasing, but is getting overwhelming attention compared to much higher overall levels (and compared to auto deaths, but I'll leave that alone).

Charleston was an exception, but the bulk of these shootings are "white on white". But US murder is very heavily "black on black".

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/u...es-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide

So part of what is going on is the press freaking out, in my view, and presenting a very misguiding picture of what is happening in the area of violent death in the US, because it does not fit the subconscious narrative of us being safe from gun crime because it is in the inner cities. I have never read Ta-Nehisi Coates, who writes so well on these sorts of issues, on this specific one, but he must have addressed it somewhere.

My eldest lives in Phoenix. I worry a LOT about the roads over there, occasionally a little about gun crime and never at all about mass shootings. Your daughter was very, very unlucky even to be close to one and was at more risk driving to the area and home again. I'm glad she's OK.