Non-interventionalist beekeeping?

[Hachi]

Not so much took issue with but felt should be clarified. There's been a lot of nonsense about feared negligence actions and the Daily Mail fantasy of a claims culture on this forum in the past.

Frimston has been on my Amazon wish list for the last year following your recommendation when the ownership of swarms problem came up, but my wife never seems to look at it as birthdays and Christmas go past, and unless and until someone comes to the office with a bee related problem I can't get the firm to buy it. Maybe I'll have to buy it myself.

Has anyone on this forum been the target of an action by a neighbour or other individual (not a local authority) as a result of our hobby (either in negligence or nuisance)? I'd love to start putting together a case list to give firm guidance. At the moment everything I post on the topic is based on the general law of negligence, for want of bee related precedents. The Northern Irish case Teemore posted about last year appears to have been for a trip/slip accident brought against an employer under the Workplace Regulations, and not related to the bees themselves.

£3.50 used copy on Ama*** right now. Is every pound a hostage??

 

[Mark Young]

I am absolutely sure that there are inherited problems from decisions made by our predecessors. One such would be the unnaturally large mono cells introduced generations ago, which are absent and void in natural situations. The introduction of Varroa is a prickly topic that I haven’t quite grasped but it’s likely to have been avoidable at that time. Then for consideration is the more recent practices of propagating for the most resilient Varroa mite while at the same time nurturing weak colonies or at best limiting or preventing any natural defence from this new threat from developing.

I completely agree todays beekeepers intervene a lot; but I think that they have to on the basis I outlined earlier and above.

I don’t think forums like this expect you to follow a step process as outlined; or I hope not anyway. I find any forum, this and Biobees to be a place to throw around a few loose theories and iron out any creases in ones beekeeping practices.
I would love to sit indoors and not worry about my bees but it’s not possible and to sound a little contradictory, as I stated previously; I think more intervention is required to produce a more self-sustaining bee. Probably not dissimilar to those which you enjoyed in your early beekeeping (only more variable in size perhaps).
Until then I will keep treating for mites and managing failing colonies.
I am sure you would find we agree on more than we don’t. It’s just typed words seem flat. A cup of tea and a smile works wonders for conversation.

 

[pargyle]

I was taught to lean and learn. That is lean on the hive and learn what your bees are doing, only intervene if the are doing something that is out of the ordinary, i would love to get every new beekeeper to read Stort, At the hive entrance (though a better translation from the german text would be worthwhile)

Although hindsight is always through colored specs, the 1960-1970s intervention on hives was at a minimum compared with now , Hives were never inspected by most beekeepers weekly but just tipped in late may and june to find swarm cells on the bottom bar or broken at the half brood. if swarm cells were found the a Hive was opened once for Pagden manipulation and once for clearing supers in august, if the learning from a lean showed prolonged slow build up then and only then was a hive opened for disease inspect. EFB was almost unknown( or was sorted by the bees)

what changed, well DDT is no longer sprayed everywhere, or shaken in scullary dustbins, varroa came in the 1990s and The wonder plastic packaging degrades into god know what quasi hormone and the world is more supercharged and less laid back so older beekeepers lean and learn advice is repalced by forums and biobees like this where beginners follow the forum and book by rote , creed , dogma or mimicry rather than trusting their own instincts

I was taught to listen, watch and learn - for everything - there is no better way to learn a practical task that watching someone else do it and then do it yourself. But .... beekeeping is a little different, you are right in so many ways MM .. so much has changed since the 1960's and the 'easy going' ways of the times before then are not so easy to achieve any more. There are so many things that we have to contend with that influence our lives. I live in hope that we can move away from the regime of chemical intervention that we have established (And I'm not just talking beekeeping) and return to a more organic way of life, generally. But ... I'm a pragmatist and I can see that there is a long haul to get to that place - if, indeed, it can ever be achieved. I think most beekeepers would trade the present situation with Varroa etc. for a beekeeping world of the 1950's ... and perhaps the long hot summers we had then as well.

In the meantime, we all, hopefully, practice the least interventiion that our colonies and their health will permit ... whatever that level of intervention is, it should be the minimum in all respects.

 

[MuswellMetro]

I am absolutely sure that there are inherited problems from decisions made by our predecessors. One such would be the unnaturally large mono cells introduced generations ago, which are absent and void in natural situations. The introduction of Varroa is a prickly topic that I haven’t quite grasped but it’s likely to have been avoidable at that time. Then for consideration is the more recent practices of propagating for the most resilient Varroa mite while at the same time nurturing weak colonies or at best limiting or preventing any natural defence from this new threat from developing.

I completely agree todays beekeepers intervene a lot; but I think that they have to on the basis I outlined earlier and above.

I don’t think forums like this expect you to follow a step process as outlined; or I hope not anyway. I find any forum, this and Biobees to be a place to throw around a few loose theories and iron out any creases in ones beekeeping practices.
I would love to sit indoors and not worry about my bees but it’s not possible and to sound a little contradictory, as I stated previously; I think more intervention is required to produce a more self-sustaining bee. Probably not dissimilar to those which you enjoyed in your early beekeeping (only more variable in size perhaps).
Until then I will keep treating for mites and managing failing colonies.
I am sure you would find we agree on more than we don’t. It’s just typed words seem flat. A cup of tea and a smile works wonders for conversation.

yes but then you repeat in your first email such creads as the reduction to smaller brood loved by american circles as a method of varroa control,

if you actual took the time to research tegetmeir original work on wax and cells as discussed in letters to charles Darwin now held in the British library all undertaken before foundation was even thought of ( i have done so out of interest because i lived next door to tegetmeir house in Muswell Hill), you will see that the variation in worker cell size covered the current "foundation" pressed size,and that worker cells range (convert from imperial0 from 4.7 to 5.3mm

i have been party to regression trial to 4.9 then onto plane strip starters, they regress to 5.1- 5.3 within three comb changes now whether bees need variable size cells is another matter

have you tried to regress your topbar hives, perhaps you could suggest a mode of regression

 

[Skyhook]

… You need to consider breeding for native characteristics, Regressing bees to a natural size,

Why? Native bees certainly had native characteristics, and were more or less wiped out by Isle of Wight disease, These were largely replace in apiculture by italian and carniolan types, which were more resistant.

The old chestnut about cell size has been disproved in numerous studies.

.

 

[Ely]

Seems to me you are a beekeeper gaining experience and finding what works for you as we all do.

He wont gain much experience doing nowt!

 

[Chris Luck]

He wont gain much experience doing nowt!

I think that depends on what you consider doing nowt.

I rarely intervene and never treat but I certainly know what I'm doing and know what I need to know as opposed to people that read books or repeat what others have told them.

Chris

 

[Mark Young]

Muswell
My point was that mono cell large bees are not found naturally but occur within managed hives. I am not sure what the American circles do but it appears that there is a far greater variation in cell size when bees are allowed to draw their own comb. Is it relevant for Varroa; I have no idea, but it’s a theory that could be explored further.

I have mostly National Hives but I imagine that any method could be practised in most hives. One way is to allow bees to build their own comb then slowly introduce more foundation-less frames whilst removing existing frames in order of age. Then observe and see if anything changes over a period of many, many years as would be expected for any such trial. There are very few documented attempts at regression which is why I think it should be explored further.

Skyhook
There is nothing out of character in evolution for a species to more or less get wiped out. What ‘generally’ happens next is the remaining small % are then the survivors and most adaptable to the change in circumstance which renders them more resilient. I just do not think that man really is best positioned to dictate species development or introduction. We do not have a good track record for such things.
The reason I would suggest Native is really based again on evolution, which takes quite a long time so should be worked with rather than against.

 

[Ely]

It was just a joke but I know what you mean. I'm at the point where I feel I can't be bothered with books. I just trust my insticts and observe. I only do regular inspections during swarm season because I want a honey crop. The rest of the time I try to leave them be as long as I'm satisfied they are healthy.

 

[Walrus]

As it has been already said, and this applies to most things, "it depends". It partly depends on why you keep bees.

I try to minimise disturbance but right now they get checked weekly 'cos I need to keep an eye on space/swarming intent….but that doesn't mean the hive is disturbed for very long. If my bees need feeding or treating they get it, because I want to keep bees not empty hives.

People who keep lots of colonies have clearly moved beyond an interest in bees, and I think for them the amount of time/money/effort involved needs to be rewarded economically i.e. it is a form of farming, which means giving nature a bit of a nudge in the direction that benefits the farmer (and ultimately the consumer).

 

[Ely]

I agree. There must be some pretty well off people on here that can afford to wave goodbye to a bit of extra income in a honey crop for the sake of preventing a few swarms.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I agree. There must be some pretty well off people on here that can afford to wave goodbye to a bit of extra income in a honey crop .

I'm not well off....far from it but I do and I'm sure lots here do.

 

[Ely]

Fair enough

 

[For want of a better word]

wiped out by Isle of Wight disease


Now I read recently that this was a tale spread by a monk who worked for some time on bee improvement at a Devon Abbey.

Guess you can not believe all as gospel, just because someone writes it in a book!

 

[Chris Luck]

I agree. There must be some pretty well off people on here that can afford to wave goodbye to a bit of extra income in a honey crop for the sake of preventing a few swarms.

I have a very, very modest income but mercifully it isn't what motivates me.

Still each to their own, if money is your thing good luck to you.

Chris

 

[Swarm]

It really depends who is defining 'well off' and 'modest'.

 

[madasafish]

It really depends who is defining 'well off' and 'modest'.

Any yacht is "modest" compared to the one(s) owned by Roman Abramovitch http://tinyurl.com/mgzlj8o.

So I am afraid I live in straightened circumstances..

But seriously as a beekeeper I would not like to be responsible for populating my neighbours' chimneys with swarms nor with my bees terrorising the kids at the local Middle School 100 meters down the road.

 

[Chris Luck]

That's why I choose to live in rural isolation so as to not worry about the next door people that can't come to grips with nature.

Modest for two of us is €600 a month, I reckon that's quite modest and only enough really for a picture of a yacht.

Chris

 

[Dusty Rhodes]

And the positives of your lifestyle choice, Chris?


Dusty

 

[Chris Luck]

Peace, quiet, land, birds, mammals, snakes, insects......

Ahhhh, life at the sharp end.


Chris