Non-interventionalist beekeeping?

[domino]

How does all this litigation vary, if you have a box that you have put up on awall, that you dont put bees in ,but they set up home themselves. In which you do nothing but ensure that the box is securely fastened to the wall.. I.e. You are not a bee keeper at all, but a preserver of native fauna.

To the original posters point managing your hive using inspection in a built up area is liable to avoid confrontations with your neighbours. Having a swarm once every blue moon is probably tolerable, having several a year isn't. If you have your bees in a field miles away from other people it doesn't matter.

So I agree with ITMA arguing if the case could or could not win seems pointless because there is nothing stopping people taking you to court in the first place causing stress and leading to an awkward relationship with your neighbours.

I have to ask, if you are keeping them in a non interventions model anyway why would you bother keeping them at all? It would seem less beekeeping more habitat maintenance.

 

[galileo]

I wouldn't say that gently removing and inspecting each frame is 'tearing' the colony apart. Of course, it's causing a little disruption, but I think the bees recover fairly quickly.
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Quite so. Mine scarcely stop what they're doing to investigate what's afoot, let alone come looking for something to sting. Slow, confident handling makes for calm bees.

I'd agree with the ethos that minimalist is best: don't go in unless you need to, and do so with everything to hand, as calmly, gently and efficiently as possible. Like another poster here, I'm an advocate of polycarb quilts.

 

[Ely]

I wouldn't let my dog run willie nillie around the neighbourhood annoying neighbours and I wouldn't let it become diseased. Bees might not be pets but the moment you decided to keep them in a box in your garden you have a responsibility to look after them. That doesnt mean weekly inspections without fail. Just common sense inspections to prevent swarming, treating, supering, harvesting. You can tell while inspecting how long to leave til the next

 

[user 6228]

Are you not the keeper of the bees if you have placed the box with intent to attract the bees, or if they have set up home incidentally?

You control the box and therefore assume ownership [if anyone could be described as an owner of bees :: ]
I think of it as a person who has a vermin problem, one is not normally a keeper of wild rats, but once the nuisance has been identified and notified to you is it not your failure to act that is actionable?

bees are not classed as vermin

 

[user 6228]

...It would seem less beekeeping more habitat maintenance.

maintenance of habitat is very important
Bird nest boxs are allowed why not Bee nest boxes?

 

[domino]

maintenance of habitat is very important
Bird nest boxs are allowed why not Bee nest boxes?

I volunteer at my local woods so I don't have a problem with that. But letting bees live a tree at the bottom of my garden isn't the same as beekeeping.

 

[flemage]

Hi Jim

I think bottom line is that they are your bee's do what you feel is best.

As long as you understand the potential consequences.

I have heard that some Bk's in the past could 'get away' with a hands off approach but that this some what came to an end with Varroa. However that said I think there are people on here who don’t treat for this and are saying that it does not effect them I think 'Chris from France' has had a lot of luck (or skill) with this.

I think it is true that there is a small set back element after a full inspection (but some times if I am doing it right they don’t even seem to know I am there). But for me the actual inspection is the main part of my enjoyment, learning to read the frames and seeing what the 'hive mind' is currently thinking. Some people may 'shoot me down on flames' for stating this but that’s fine. They have their bees to play with.

As a newbie myself (3 years) I needed and still to some extent need the reassurance of the regular inspection but if I am happy with a hive then I will let it go longer than normal before inspecting again.

Just as an anecdotal thing my friend was trying a bit more hands off and no treatments, he lost all his hives, I will be giving him one of my survivors.

But it’s down to you, best of luck!

 

[Philip]

@ derekm “bees are not classed as vermin”

You are probably correct but you miss the point that was being made.
It is the reaction or ‘lack of’ once an abatement notice is served by council’s environmental health dept that would then be actioned.

Within the act the following would be relevant to the point being made,
[F377Subject to subsections [F916(1ZA)] to (6A) below], the following matters constitute“statutory nuisances” for the purposes of this Part, that is to say—
any premises in such a state as to be prejudicial to health or a nuisance
>>> snip
any insects emanating from premises and being prejudicial to health or a nuisance;

Sorry I was trying to keep it light hearted and not too pedantic, please accept my apologies for the lack of detail.

 

[Pete D]

So last year I had a young healthy queen and they did brilliantly - building up from four seams to ten, no swarms, lots of honey.

Hi Jim, very interesting, couple of questions though
did you harvest all the honey in a non interventional kid of way, or leave them with it for the winter.
Do you use queen excluders ?
Do you intend to replace the bees every couple of years when they die out through varroa.
good luck

 

[user 6228]

@ derekm “bees are not classed as vermin”

You are probably correct but you miss the point that was being made.
It is the reaction or ‘lack of’ once an abatement notice is served by council’s environmental health dept that would then be actioned.

Within the act the following would be relevant to the point being made,
[F377Subject to subsections [F916(1ZA)] to (6A) below], the following matters constitute“statutory nuisances” for the purposes of this Part, that is to say—
any premises in such a state as to be prejudicial to health or a nuisance
>>> snip
any insects emanating from premises and being prejudicial to health or a nuisance;

Sorry I was trying to keep it light hearted and not too pedantic, please accept my apologies for the lack of detail.

oh agreed that if you have been served an abatement notice... but its what is likely to get an abatement notice...

A neighbour would need to show they were regularly being disturbed by bees swarms in their garden and they emanated from your land...
A couple of swarms a year would be be difficult to contrue as a nuisance.
Especially given the levels of publicity for bees, the neighbour could probably sell tickets to look at the bee swarm.

I havent not yet heard of a council making people get rid of bees in their chimney when the said chimney is not council owned.

 

[Jim Newmark]

Just a note on the original point, I never really meant "non-interventionalist", more "semi-interventionalist". Couldn't it be true that a lot depends on circumstances? As predicted, the bees have swarmed - three times. But I have a pretty enclosed garden with low hanging branches all around and I have caught all the swarms, the prime and the two casts with no problem. In the few years I have had them I am pretty sure that they have never swarmed outside the garden ..... so no nuisance to neighbours! And I check for varroa frequently via the board.
But anyway, I am now inspecting regularly - I can unite but I suspect that it is a nuisance so I am destroying QCs from the original hive as I don't want them to cast themselves to annihilation.
But next year, with hopefully all young queens apart from the prime. Why not back to semi-interventionalist for them!?

 

[Mark Young]

The problem with non or semi interventional bee-keeping is resolving inherited problems from other and older beekeepers decisions first which takes a lot of ‘Intervention’… You need to consider breeding for native characteristics, Regressing bees to a natural size, limit chemical induced reductions on the essential micro-organisms within a hive and as so many have suggested, accept losing expensive bees in high numbers along the way.

It’s hard to accept losses as most people prioritise immediate cost and instant gratification over future longevity of anything; which is exactly why we are running out of everything, fast!

That said its plain ignorance of biological and evolutionary facts to suggest that it isn’t possible; it would just be damn bloody hard work! It would also require collaboration, which is harder still when every other beekeeper has their own ‘silver bullet’ solution.

you should always remember that there isn’t a single scrap of scientific evidence to demonstrate that human manipulation is the long term solution or alternative to adaptation through natural selection. It’s basic Biology; any species that cannot adapt to nature or survive without the intervention of apes is inherently unsustainable and has already failed.

As for swarm control, I recommend vigilance over obsession for the small scale keeper. A swarm of bees is hardly the biggest inconvenience anyone will ever face. Most people I speak to look on at a swarm in awe rather than disgust. I think we should give non-beekeepers more credit than just being intolerantly deranged irrational Apiphobians.

 

[MuswellMetro]

The problem with non or semi interventional bee-keeping is resolving inherited problems from other and older beekeepers decisions first which takes a lot of ‘Intervention’… You need to consider breeding for native characteristics, Regressing bees to a natural size, limit chemical induced reductions on the essential micro-organisms within a hive and as so many have suggested, accept losing expensive bees in high numbers along the way.

It’s hard to accept losses as most people prioritise immediate cost and instant gratification over future longevity of anything; which is exactly why we are running out of everything, fast!

That said its plain ignorance of biological and evolutionary facts to suggest that it isn’t possible; it would just be damn bloody hard work! It would also require collaboration, which is harder still when every other beekeeper has their own ‘silver bullet’ solution.

you should always remember that there isn’t a single scrap of scientific evidence to demonstrate that human manipulation is the long term solution or alternative to adaptation through natural selection. It’s basic Biology; any species that cannot adapt to nature or survive without the intervention of apes is inherently unsustainable and has already failed.

As for swarm control, I recommend vigilance over obsession for the small scale keeper. A swarm of bees is hardly the biggest inconvenience anyone will ever face. Most people I speak to look on at a swarm in awe rather than disgust. I think we should give non-beekeepers more credit than just being intolerantly deranged irrational Apiphobians.

You appear to be well read and very confident of your facts for a new beekeeper who less than than two year ago had their first bees and i answered your queries on another forum

I started beekeeping at the age of seven at school in 1955 and in the following 58 years have learnt more about bees than you will ever known just by reading books

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

But next year, with hopefully all young queens apart from the prime. Why not back to semi-interventionalist for them!?

I'd have thought either you intervene or you don't - isn't what you are suggesting just sitting back for a season and letting them get into a mess then rushing around the season after and sorting them out then next season sitting back........ ad infinitum or did i just mis something (par for the course for me )
Far better to try and find a happy medium and carry on with that at all times.

 

[Mark Young]

I am certain I made no claims regarding superior knowledge of keeping bees although would happily reject any such ridiculous claims that longevity is proof of superior knowledge.

That aside I am sure you can appreciate from time to time that those of us you deem inferior may wish to express an opinion on the basic principles of life. In this instance based on my study of life science in evolutionary biology.

If my post was wrong then please correct me with facts and I will happily concede.

Best Regards

 

[Tom Bick]

I am posting as a newbie (of three years) so please don't shoot me down - just tell me where I am going off piste in this. I have read and read, over and over again and without apparent argument variations of "not inspecting is a form of neglect" Clearly a crime for which I could get drummed out of every bee organisation around. It is clear that full inspections are intended. Just why is this?
For the first year I did all that, stunning them with smoke and tearing the hive apart every week to ten days. It was infested with varroa but survived. I caught two swarms, a main and a cast, both swarming to the same convenient tree. I gave the original colony away and kept the main swarm and the cast, both still infested with varroa but during the winter one responded well to oxalic acid (one with a drop in the hundreds, the other died during the treatment midwinter with a shed of literally thousands of varroa). So last year I had a young healthy queen and they did brilliantly - building up from four seams to ten, no swarms, lots of honey. But this time I deliberately did not tear the hive apart to inspect - all I did was just watch them, with great pleasure, all summer, going about their business, happy and content, piling in the pollen, no varroa at all (that oxalic acid stuff is brilliant, isn't it?!) And no problems with a healthy cluster all winter.
So, should I inspect this year? They are again piling in the pollen and seem very content. Surely I can pretty much know their health by looking at the varroa board and using the glass top to assess activity and build up? Yes, they will definitely swarm this year - so what is wrong with a bait hive to the same tree? With a good chance of knowing where they are going to swarm surely it seems very counter-intuitive to tear apart a healthy organism and attempt to put it together again every week? What surgeon would do that to a healthy person "I know you feel perfectly well but there may be some cancer or disease in here."!
So, give me your arguments against this. I am sure they will come!

Seems to me you are a beekeeper gaining experience and finding what works for you as we all do.

 

[Stiffy]

Not sure what others do but my hives have movable frames that allow for regular , if needed inspections. They also allow me to undergo the inspections with the minimal of disturbance and I never have to 'tear the hive apart' as is often quoted. If I did the bees would soon let me know they were not happy and sting. One did that today when it became trapped and was unfortunately squished resulting in the first sting of the year !
S

 

[For want of a better word]

Not sure what others do but my hives have movable frames that allow for regular , if needed inspections. They also allow me to undergo the inspections with the minimal of disturbance and I never have to 'tear the hive apart' as is often quoted. If I did the bees would soon let me know they were not happy and sting. One did that today when it became trapped and was unfortunately squished resulting in the first sting of the year !
S

Me too.... not realising that they can sting adequately through an open mesh floor.... as I was carrying a colony to my out apiary!
( may bee the second... I now suffer from short term memory loss!)

 

[MuswellMetro]

The problem with non or semi interventional bee-keeping is resolving inherited problems from other and older beekeepers decisions first which takes a lot of ‘Intervention’…
.

Let's take your first sentence, are you sure of this statement, from my view point it is the new beekeeper that intervenes more,

I was taught to lean and learn. That is lean on the hive and learn what your bees are doing, only intervene if the are doing something that is out of the ordinary, i would love to get every new beekeeper to read Stort, At the hive entrance (though a better translation from the german text would be worthwhile)

Although hindsight is always through colored specs, the 1960-1970s intervention on hives was at a minimum compared with now , Hives were never inspected by most beekeepers weekly but just tipped in late may and june to find swarm cells on the bottom bar or broken at the half brood. if swarm cells were found the a Hive was opened once for Pagden manipulation and once for clearing supers in august, if the learning from a lean showed prolonged slow build up then and only then was a hive opened for disease inspect. EFB was almost unknown( or was sorted by the bees)

what changed, well DDT is no longer sprayed everywhere, or shaken in scullary dustbins, varroa came in the 1990s and The wonder plastic packaging degrades into god know what quasi hormone and the world is more supercharged and less laid back so older beekeepers lean and learn advice is repalced by forums and biobees like this where beginners follow the forum and book by rote , creed , dogma or mimicry rather than trusting their own instincts

last year i had a long discourse on another forum on whether we could return to native bees only to find the person was talking about his native American bees...so what are they, there are none

So that agrees with your stament but also disages

 

[For want of a better word]

last year i had a long discourse on another forum on whether we could return to native bees only to find the person was talking about his native American bees...so what are they, there are none

Now where did I read that early British settlers took their native black honey bees with them, and the bees did so well in the land, that had no native honey bees of its own, that they colonised the Wild West long before the settlers got there?
At that time in history the bees new to the Americas were Apis mellifera mellifera?

A m ligusta did not arrive in the UK until 1858? so the early British settlers could not have introduced them