Newbie National hive set up question

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I’m foundationless so that means more vigilance too

OK - puerile sniggering to one side, when you say foundationless, have you any wax foundation at all in your frames? starter strips? or wax beading in the channels?
Is there any kind of wire reinforking in the frames to help strengthen the comb? what kind of frames are they? self spacing Hoffman's or DN1's with plastic spacwers?

 

[MonicaB]

OK - puerile sniggering to one side, when you say foundationless, have you any wax foundation at all in your frames? starter strips? or wax beading in the channels?
Is there any kind of wire reinforking in the frames to help strengthen the comb? what kind of frames are they? self spacing Hoffman's or DN1's with plastic spacwers?

They are self spacing Hoffman’s. There’s no wire at all. So it’s a worry. I have some foundation arriving which I can use in the super when I add it. Feel free to snigger haha

 

[Erichalfbee]

I would definitely alternate your starter strips with foundation or you might well find the bees build comb all over the place. You can probably get away without wiring standard frames. I have some of my colonies on their own comb but I run 14x12 and "wire" the frames
Oh and the hive has to be dead level

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

They are self spacing Hoffman’s. There’s no wire at all. So it’s a worry. I have some foundation arriving which I can use in the super when I add it. Feel free to snigger haha

Unless you are very very lucky, with no kind of foundation at all in the brood box, they are going to have a free for all with creative comb drawing, even just a half inch strip of foundation in each frame would help - or a bead of molten wax poured in to the channel metween the wedge and the top bar.

 

[MonicaB]

Unless you are very very lucky, with no kind of foundation at all in the brood box, they are going to have a free for all with creative comb drawing, even just a half inch strip of foundation in each frame would help - or a bead of molten wax poured in to the channel metween the wedge and the top bar.

Ok, so tomorrow when I remove the super should I inspect the frames in the brood box and add the strip of foundation to any accessible frames?

 

[MonicaB]

I would definitely alternate your starter strips with foundation or you might well find the bees build comb all over the place. You can probably get away without wiring standard frames. I have some of my colonies on their own comb but I run 14x12 and "wire" the frames
Oh and the hive has to be dead level

Yes I have levelled it - something I’ve done right!

 

[drex]

I would humbly suggest that it would be better for all beginners to start off with conventional hives using conventional frames and foundation. Learn to walk b fore you run. I started with Nationals and then made a couple of top bars. I was so glad that I had some beekeeping experience as top bars and foundation less is a whole new game

 

[Arfermo]

Yes I have levelled it - something I’ve done right!

Monica, I suspect you may not have joined your local BKA yet as you are trying learn here what you would learn better elsewhere from local beekeepers that would be better able to mentor you and maybe even visit with practical help?

 

[enrico]

Monica, you may find some useful tips in my blog section. On this site go to blogs and then to authors and then to my Enrico logo. There are several pages on there that were written for second year beekeepers who were struggling but it may help you to see how things work. Secondly get a really easy read book like 'bees at the bottom of the garden' it is really helpful for first time beekeepers and not a heavy read at all. Remember this, if you give bees empty space with no frames they will build wild comb in every part of it. There is a thing called a beespace, this is the most important measurement you will ever need in a national hive, anything more than a beespace will give you problems with excess comb and anything less will be propalised together. At least you are asking what to do so keep asking if you are unsure. We are here to help.
E

 

[Arfermo]

My preference for a book would always be Ted Hooper MBE 'Guide to Bees and Honey' as a must to dip into for somebody who already has experience of beekeeping though Enrico's suggestion above might be better for a complete novice.

 

[MonicaB]

I would humbly suggest that it would be better for all beginners to start off with conventional hives using conventional frames and foundation. Learn to walk b fore you run. I started with Nationals and then made a couple of top bars. I was so glad that I had some beekeeping experience as top bars and foundation less is a whole new game

I absolutely appreciate the wisdom in this. And it’s interesting that although I originally had my top bar set up, they chose the unplanned National so I’ve had to learn the conventional first.

 

[MonicaB]

Monica, I suspect you may not have joined your local BKA yet as you are trying learn here what you would learn better elsewhere from local beekeepers that would be better able to mentor you and maybe even visit with practical help?

Hi, I’ve joined it and am looking for a mentor as we speak. I just have to find the right fit as I was talking to someone but he just doesn’t have the time. The help I’ve had on here has been awesome. Thank you

 

[MonicaB]

Monica, you may find some useful tips in my blog section. On this site go to blogs and then to authors and then to my Enrico logo. There are several pages on there that were written for second year beekeepers who were struggling but it may help you to see how things work. Secondly get a really easy read book like 'bees at the bottom of the garden' it is really helpful for first time beekeepers and not a heavy read at all. Remember this, if you give bees empty space with no frames they will build wild comb in every part of it. There is a thing called a beespace, this is the most important measurement you will ever need in a national hive, anything more than a beespace will give you problems with excess comb and anything less will be propalised together. At least you are asking what to do so keep asking if you are unsure. We are here to help.
E

 

[MonicaB]

Hi E, thanks for the book suggestion I’ve ordered it. I’ll also visit your blog.
I removed the empty super today and there was already comb and they were all hanging. The only space I have now is the brood box. I’m feeding from the crown board - the comb I removed yesterday in an upturned container and some syrup. My next job is to inspect the frames and add some foundation. I’ll do that in a day or two when they’ve settled. I can’t leVe it too long because they build so fast don’t they.
With appreciation, Monica

 

[Swarm]

Do you have spare frames? Make up your frames with foundation then you have the choice to replace with a straight swap or go every other with foundationless frames.
Personally, I'd swap the lot and get them to draw tidy combs first. Once they are established you can experiment and decide your way forward but they need to put all that work to good use now so they can build themselves up.
Best of luck finding a mentor, the last year has been very difficult for courses or any hands on experience. It can only get better, eh?

 

[enrico]

Hi E, thanks for the book suggestion I’ve ordered it. I’ll also visit your blog.
I removed the empty super today and there was already comb and they were all hanging. The only space I have now is the brood box. I’m feeding from the crown board - the comb I removed yesterday in an upturned container and some syrup. My next job is to inspect the frames and add some foundation. I’ll do that in a day or two when they’ve settled. I can’t leVe it too long because they build so fast don’t they.
With appreciation, Monica

Ok Monica, I don't want to sound pushy but you need to put frames with foundation in the brood box at the earlies opportunity. As much as you want them to build wax in nice straight lines from the top bars of each frame they are highly unlikely to be that organised! They will build it anywhere at any angle. The reason it works in a top bar hive is that you give them a strip of wax on the top bar to guide them. There are none of this presumably on the foundation frames. Get working and put foundation in your frames and go swap them as soon as possible for the frames with no foundation. If you don't then you will be making more work for yourself. The secret is to keep it really simple otherwise they will have you in tears before you start!
If you need any other advice send me a private message if you want.
Keep smiling, at least you have bees which is more than some

 

[Erichalfbee]

The help I’ve had on here has been awesome. Thank you

This is an awesome community

 

[MonicaB]

Do you have spare frames? Make up your frames with foundation then you have the choice to replace with a straight swap or go every other with foundationless frames.
Personally, I'd swap the lot and get them to draw tidy combs first. Once they are established you can experiment and decide your way forward but they need to put all that work to good use now so they can build themselves up.
Best of luck finding a mentor, the last year has been very difficult for courses or any hands on experience. It can only get better, eh?

I have just made up some frames with foundation. I’ll swap and that I can get to. This is a very daunting task for me as a beginner, I’ve never seen the Queen I’ll have no idea where she is and I’m going to have to be extremely careful. With moving the frames and

Do you have spare frames? Make up your frames with foundation then you have the choice to replace with a straight swap or go every other with foundationless frames.
Personally, I'd swap the lot and get them to draw tidy combs first. Once they are established you can experiment and decide your way forward but they need to put all that work to good use now so they can build themselves up.
Best of luck finding a mentor, the last year has been very difficult for courses or any hands on experience. It can only get better, eh?

Yes, I’ve just received a delivery of frames with foundation. So I’ll go on again this afternoon if the weather holds and swap some. I’m not sure I’ve got it in me to remove everything they’ve built and I’m nervous, first time moving things around near the Queen. Wish me luck and yes things are getting better. Thanks again

 

[MonicaB]

Ok Monica, I don't want to sound pushy but you need to put frames with foundation in the brood box at the earlies opportunity. As much as you want them to build wax in nice straight lines from the top bars of each frame they are highly unlikely to be that organised! They will build it anywhere at any angle. The reason it works in a top bar hive is that you give them a strip of wax on the top bar to guide them. There are none of this presumably on the foundation frames. Get working and put foundation in your frames and go swap them as soon as possible for the frames with no foundation. If you don't then you will be making more work for yourself. The secret is to keep it really simple otherwise they will have you in tears before you start!
If you need any other advice send me a private message if you want.
Keep smiling, at least you have bees which is more than some

Ok thanks, I’m going back in this afternoon, I’ll swap as many frames as I can for the ones with foundation.

 

[pargyle]

Ok thanks, I’m going back in this afternoon, I’ll swap as many frames as I can for the ones with foundation.

Just alternate frames with foundation and those that they have started to build out that are foundationless. As long as they have a guide to work to they will usually build straight comb within the frames ... don't go destroying comb just because it is within a foundationless frame - bend it to near straight and put it back in. Make sure your frames are pushed up well together.