New Zealand bees.

[Into the lions den]

Its interesting to note that despite years of trying large numbers of other bees, following these selection criteria your bees revert to Amm "style"..

Its not my selection criteria that pull it back to the A.m.m. type, its the influence of local drones from outwith my unit. Yes we can set up drone colonies, but bottom line is that in our home range the nearest hives belonging to another unit is not likely to be more than half a mile away, and within 3 miles you may have 200 colonies or sometimes even a lot more. No matter how hard we select, all goes back to black in not more than 3 or 4 generations in our part of Perthshire.


I have no idea how many the NZ/US/Aus/Argentina............or anywhere else for that matter..........breeders use from one mother. As I said earlier, when they are for sale and being widely dispersed it actually matters a lot less than if you take too many from one line to use in your own unit. Your guess at say 3000 may not be far out. I have known local breeders to take 200 or more from one mother.

 

[mbc]

Its not my selection criteria that pull it back to the A.m.m. type.

Why spoil a convenient ( for Amm enthusiasts !) theory with plain observation.

 

[DanBee]

"Also have an upper limit of 30 daughters from any one mother"

I imagine you could add two zero's to this figure for the number of daughters the NZ breeder queens produce.

Do you see the production of several thousand daughter queens as a negative?

ITLD mentioned this to avoid falling into the trap of inbreeding since these 30 daughter queens will be dispersed fairly locally. The NZ breeder may well be producing in the thousands, but they will be very well dispersed!

 

[gavin]

Hi Folks

I'm rather preoccupied today but will just chip in with these observations

- In Dan's environment where the old bee has completely gone, who could possibly argue with breeding from the best of the local mix? I'm not suggesting wholesale replacement of what is currently there with some recreated neo-Devonian Amm but on the other hand there are groups on the SW penisula trying to maintain and improve the old bee. Why not support them?

- I fear that we are seeing an accelerating loss of the native bee where it still occurs. Bee farmers are converting to the latest fad, and more than ever before hobby beekeepers are taking non-native stock into areas where the purest native stock have remained, in areas where bee farming doesn't reach but traders and queen raisers do. Should we just let that happen? What is so wrong with promoting the heritage value of the bee via the products it produces if people so want? If there was a good, productive, healthy Amm type of the form that PH remembers, wouldn't even Murray use it and benefit from the marketing edge that could give him? Duchy Originals with native Scottish honeybees (with defined levels of purity of course)?!

- I'm unconvinced that Amm has to be aggressive, too slow to build, too susceptible to chalkbrood, EFB, IAPV, CCD, phorid fly, the Highland Midge, you name it. In general, the stocks around are unselected unimproved stuff because no-one (or maybe very very few) is/are doing proper breeding with it, unfit because of generations of crossing with different bee races and without the benefit of all those German scientists who changed Carnica to breed out many of its failings.

- For some people, the grass is always greener. The next new thing is the best thing. Sometimes it really is better, for a while anyway. Sometimes it really is better full stop. But if you are not comparing the new stuff with what could have been there if you'd put the effort into the old stuff, are you making the right decision? The effort needed to keep the new stuff as it is could have been put into the old stuff, and then you could have the old stuff without all the issues you get from mixing bee types together - temper issues at least in some instances, high levels of variability, overall poorer stability. Don't anybody take 'people' and 'you' personally. I'm thinking generally. And you can substitute Buckfast, Italians, cecropia, NWCs, Russians or whatever for NZ carnies if you like.

- My attitude to bee farmers? Like many of them. Respect them for making their living from bees. Appreciate that they need to make money. Note that they have the full range of views on type of bee as you find amongst hobbyists. Note too that there is a wide range of management skill levels, and Murray must be one of the best. Believe that their interests overlap to a very large extent with the hobbyist. Appreciate the greater contact between them and hobbyists in Scotland following the EFB problems. I'm not a critic (except where deserved!).

So there you go - I'm nervous about too many people going for these NZ carniolans. It isn't as simple as - get queens - bees improve. Will they just improve the average scores for the general mixed genetics populations out there? Maybe. If more of them appear in areas that predominantly have one type of bee there already? No, I doubt it. In this case, mixing and hybridity only gives a short term benefit, down the line the bees are less good. IMHO.

Gavin

 

[gavin]

No matter how hard we select, all goes back to black in not more than 3 or 4 generations in our part of Perthshire.

Just for everyone's info, commercial colonies probably outnumber hobbyist 10:1 in our association's area. Largely Murray's and those of two larger bee farmer neighbours. Until the recent NZ imports one was largely Amm-ish and one wasn't, I suspect.

 

[mbc]

Do you see the production of several thousand daughter queens as a negative?

ITLD mentioned this to avoid falling into the trap of inbreeding since these 30 daughter queens will be dispersed fairly locally. The NZ breeder may well be producing in the thousands, but they will be very well dispersed!

Potentially yes.
The breeding stock comes from a carefully selected and necessarily inbred line of bees which have then been exported ( further narrowing the base genetics )to an isolated area in NZ, then multiplied hugely, presumably being open mated to fairly closely related drones. Does raising thousands of queens from each breeder in this system make me wonder if there might be problems down the road ? of course.
This doesnt mean to say I think the NZ breeders are anything but thoughtful professionals or that ITLD hasnt put belt and braces into his management practices to avoid inbreeding suppresion, but with all the praises being sung about these NZ carnies, I can imagine a lot of people wanting to convert wholesale over to them, and that does fill me with trepidation.

 

[DanBee]

Potentially yes.
The breeding stock comes from a carefully selected and necessarily inbred line of bees which have then been exported ( further narrowing the base genetics )to an isolated area in NZ, then multiplied hugely,

With respect, I think you've misunderstood the purpose of any breeding programme, commercial or amateur, large scale or small scale. It is to concentrate genetics through active selection such that the favoured characteristics appear predictably, certainly more often than not, in the offspring. Breeding requires a degree of inbreeding in order to concentrate the favoured characteristics. Moving selected colonies to an isolated mating area is no different in outcome than purging non-conformant stocks from your own area to leave just the favoured ones; the net result of either is that the area is flooded/dominated/biased with the types of bees that you want to mate together.

presumably being open mated to fairly closely related drones.

I don't know how the outfit in question operates; ITLD may be able to provide more details. If inbreeding were becoming problemmatic in any breeding/raising/mating set-up then this would be obvious in poor quality mated queens, not least in aspects of brood survival, loss of vigour, and disease susceptibility.

I'd say it's wrong to assume that they are mated with closely related drones - it may be that they are purposefully mated with another selected line in isolation from their own line, in order to produce hybrid vigour. Again, the small scale 'local' bee improvement approach of dominating the area with favoured stocks, requeened from previous queen raising, also raises the very real possibility of mating with closely related drones.

Does raising thousands of queens from each breeder in this system make me wonder if there might be problems down the road ? of course.

The position in the US, where most of the stocks can reportedly be traced back to a handful of breeding outfits, and hence much genetic diversity has been lost, is concerning. However I do not see how this is paralleled by Murray's importation of queens. If everyone in his region was importing from this same queen producer, then yes, that could be a problem, just as it would if those same beekeepers were all getting their stock of 'pure' Amm from a single UK breeder. Indeed you could argue that an Amm-only stance for the UK would drastically reduce the genetic diversity from its current level, potentially losing a raft of positive options. I know the IoW disease is a prickly subject for the Amm fraternity, but it is a very real example of a closed population poorly placed to deal with a disease which its close relatives could withstand.

I'm afraid you appear to be critical of this breeding effort because it is done on a large scale, not because of the quality of the operation or of the resulting queens. Perhaps I have misunderstood your replies, but "big is bad" is not a constructive argument

 

[Into the lions den]

Potentially yes.
The breeding stock comes from a carefully selected and necessarily inbred line of bees which have then been exported ( further narrowing the base genetics )to an isolated area in NZ, then multiplied hugely, presumably being open mated to fairly closely related drones. Does raising thousands of queens from each breeder in this system make me wonder if there might be problems down the road ? of course.
This doesnt mean to say I think the NZ breeders are anything but thoughtful professionals or that ITLD hasnt put belt and braces into his management practices to avoid inbreeding suppresion, but with all the praises being sung about these NZ carnies, I can imagine a lot of people wanting to convert wholesale over to them, and that does fill me with trepidation.

Hmmmm............

OK..the main breeder stock is maintained by Daykel Apiaries, and raised under the title of Southern Cross Carniolans. We do not import from Daykel but some do. Daykel maintain a range of purebred lines whch they cross to produce queens for onward sale.

Breeder queens are sold to a number of breeders. These are of differing lines.
The main exporters of these queens are Arataki and Kintail. We have sourced from both.

Arataki at least prepare a special design mating nuc with the ripe cells, wait till they hatch, and then ship the mating boxes by truck, a huge number at a time, off to other parts of North Island, where other beekeepers have the same type of bees bred from different lines, and the boxes are set out to mate there, so as to avoid total inbreeding to over closely related bees. It is a slick professional and extremely well thought out process.


There will be no massive conversion in the short term to these bees. They are not cheap and availability is not unlimited. The import process is not easy, and the minimum order for shipping is big.

 

[Into the lions den]

Just for everyone's info, commercial colonies probably outnumber hobbyist 10:1 in our association's area. Largely Murray's and those of two larger bee farmer neighbours. Until the recent NZ imports one was largely Amm-ish and one wasn't, I suspect.

Very very few of our NZ queens have ended up on your patch Gavin. Others may have placed more, but not aware of any serious number ever reaching the Carse. Your nearest neighbour pulled out of his order last season, citing threat of divorce if he got any more bees..................lol.

Of the two other largish ones I think you mean, only the one really overlaps with me and who may have some colonies in your area, but I think 'natural cull' supplemented by 'bee insector cull' got rid of a good proportion of their Amm over the last couple of years.........the other..........a few miles east of me...........has had a good amount of Amm too but also had problems (ongoing) getting a viable harvest from it and had a big death rate...............they probably have more overseas origin stock than most, and I know they have had various disparate lines in recent years.

 

[mbc]

Hmmmm............

OK..the main breeder stock is maintained by Daykel Apiaries, and raised under the title of Southern Cross Carniolans. We do not import from Daykel but some do. Daykel maintain a range of purebred lines whch they cross to produce queens for onward sale.

Breeder queens are sold to a number of breeders. These are of differing lines.
The main exporters of these queens are Arataki and Kintail. We have sourced from both.

Arataki at least prepare a special design mating nuc with the ripe cells, wait till they hatch, and then ship the mating boxes by truck, a huge number at a time, off to other parts of North Island, where other beekeepers have the same type of bees bred from different lines, and the boxes are set out to mate there, so as to avoid total inbreeding to over closely related bees. It is a slick professional and extremely well thought out process.


There will be no massive conversion in the short term to these bees. They are not cheap and availability is not unlimited. The import process is not easy, and the minimum order for shipping is big.

But is it possible that all the queens in any batch could have the same mother ?

 

[Poly Hive]

I am with you in spirit with this Gavi but there are a few buts to mention.

I lost my AMM due to circumstances out of my control. Namely a pyromanic farmer. What is gone is gone and that is that, end of.

So I merrily thought I will get some more.... err no. Some notable names didn't even reply to my contacts. BIBBA was a total waste of time, not one of their people were willing to even share a queen cell... and beyond that they didn't seem to even talk to eachother so how they propose to move on beggers belief. Dave C was fed up with that attitude I can tell you as he sure told me he was.

So......... where next?

If I am stumped with my contacts what chance the newbie?

I bought some abroad bred AMM and was not at all impressed with them. So next?

In my area to my ken there is nothing special to upset, they are pretty mongrelised already so I bought some NZ and I have to say so far they are a delight, but I have yet to work them in a reasonable season as here last year was a nightmare for drought.

I would suggest that the AMM people form a group, possibly using this forum as a link and co-operate amongst themselves by sharing eggs or cells or virgins.

PH

 

[mbc]

With respect, I think you've misunderstood the purpose of any breeding programme,
I'm afraid you appear to be critical of this breeding effort because it is done on a large scale, not because of the quality of the operation or of the resulting queens. Perhaps I have misunderstood your replies, but "big is bad" is not a constructive argument

?
I'm not at all critical, cautious maybe, and embarrassed that we, in the UK, rely on others breeding efforts because we dont seem to have got it together in any earnestness, perhaps, but if youve read " big is bad " into my posts then my English is worse than I thought.

 

[Into the lions den]

But is it possible that all the queens in any batch could have the same mother ?

If you place a small order then I suppose that is a possibility just by chance. Large orders? No way.

However, these are production queens open mated. You do not get a pedigree with them, so as an ordinary beekeeper user I do not know which lines any individual queen came from, and after they leave the mating nucs I very much doubt the breeder does either. This is a practical commercial operation and such detail would be both a costly admin layer, and just not needed.

 

[Into the lions den]

?
I'm embarrassed that we, in the UK, rely on others breeding efforts because we dont seem to have got it together in any earnestness.

OK. a few little snips, but the above is the gist of what you said............

I think that may be a little harsh on UK brreding efforts. People HAVE tried, but perhaps not got themselves sorted out on a scale required to compete with imported queens.

Weather and timing are terrible handicaps against UK producers. To get anywhere sensible you need to KNOW within a couple of days, weeks ahead, when your queens are going to arrive. I have ordered from some UK breeders and from Ireland and it is a nightmare.

No fault being picked with quality but you could NEVER plan anything other than a hobbyist set up with breeders who you order and prepay 40 queens from, for late May. Four roll up in the second week of June, another 6 at the end of June, and they try to send you more in mid July in the midst of your heather shift, and by the end of August you have limped up to 26 supplied, and you get offered a few more of your May supply in late Sept.

This actually happened. Charge you £30 each for the privelege of being supplied.

Perfectly decent stock available, on time mainly, from E.Europe at under a tenner. Some rubbish too though, so you need to know what you are doing.

Anyone willing to offer me hundreds of queens, at a competitive price (which would have to be in the £15 range or below), from good stock that gets a crop up here, and definitely delivered before the 1st June?

No? Then I need to import proven stock from relaible quality breeders for early season splits.

 

[mbc]

I would suggest that the AMM people form a group, possibly using this forum as a link and co-operate amongst themselves by sharing eggs or cells or virgins.

PH

Co-operation and sharing is quite commonplace, but forming a group ? isnt that where BIBBA have gone wrong ?

 

[mbc]

If you place a small order then I suppose that is a possibility just by chance. Large orders? No way.

However, these are production queens open mated. You do not get a pedigree with them, so as an ordinary beekeeper user I do not know which lines any individual queen came from, and after they leave the mating nucs I very much doubt the breeder does either. This is a practical commercial operation and such detail would be both a costly admin layer, and just not needed.

I can appreciate that, the question was just hypothetical to point out the potential for these bees to have a narrow genetic base.

 

[Poly Hive]

If you join BIBBA you have to pay out subs.

A group on here would be free and possibly a lot more efficient because they can communicate. A major hurdle for BIBBA it seems.

PH

 

[mbc]

I think that may be a little harsh on UK brreding efforts. People HAVE tried, but perhaps not got themselves sorted out on a scale required to compete with imported queens.
.

Yes, sorry to all the good people who have, and do, give it a go, it wasnt meant as a criticism of individuals, more aimed at institutions ( are own NBU use bees from countries with a more long term view to bee health ! ).
The Danish and German bee breeding efforts have been helped enormously by state sponsorship, legislation and progressive attitudes by their administrations over decades and decades, we have a lot of catching up to do but it seems we've given up on our own aspirations and are happy to sponge off the efforts of others.

 

[Poly Hive]

What aspirations?

I mean that precisely.

PH

 

[mbc]

What aspirations?

I mean that precisely.

PH

To have a self sustainable healthy population of bees.
If you trawl through the objectives of the Healthy (pay-cheques for everyone involved, but getting nowhere fast) Bees Plan then I'm sure it'll be there.

Googled it:
" ensure a sustainabe and productive future for beekeeping In England and Wales." is what it actually states. Perhaps not an aspiration to breed our own bees, but the "sustainable" bit reads like that to me.