Natural beekeeping

[Finman]

I have met real natural beekeepers last time 25 years ago.

They had couple of beehives on backyard. They did nothing to bees because bees sting.

The opened the hive first time at the last half of June when the hive swarmed.

Then they took 10 kg honey to consumption. Then again, they did nothing.

If the hive died, surely a new swarm will come some day.

Many nursed bees this way even 30 years. Then came varroa and killed those lazy beekeepers.
Because wild swarm system ceased, the natural beekeeping vanished.

To me natural beekeepers are just lazy gang, which does not want beekeeping challenges.
Yes, i have seen in biobee forum their "free hives". Awfull.

 

[OXFORDBEE]

Who's presuming conventionally kept hives are on the high ground regarding disease ?
I thought its a well established fact that brood diseases especially, mostly get spread by movable brood frames.
Personally, I'm very happy for beekeepers to keep bees whichever way they prefer so long as its done responsibly with regard to other colonies within the environment.
The bit that rattles my cage is when certain types of beekeeper ( whether "natural" or "traditional" ) take on a "holier than though" attitude and start spreading misguided gospels.
Each to their own, but expect reaction if you "go public" with nonsensical beliefs.

Let's not forget colonies being in decline getting robbed out and clever beekeepers dumping equipment in the open for bees to clean up spreading disease as well.

Deadouts in spring getting robbed out can also be good sources of nasties too.

The one thing I do have a real grumble with is those beekeepers who think they are clever by going "underground" and don't want their colonies inspected.

 

[mbc]

Let's not forget colonies being in decline getting robbed out and clever beekeepers dumping equipment in the open for bees to clean up spreading disease as well.

Deadouts in spring getting robbed out can also be good sources of nasties too.

The one thing I do have a real grumble with is those beekeepers who think they are clever by going "underground" and don't want their colonies inspected.

but due to the miracle of the proventriculus, disease from drifting and robbing is much less likely than good old beekeepers unknowingly spreading disease when transferring brood frames

 

[Chris Luck]

What I find interesting is that most holier than thou views, if not down right insults, are being expressed by the people that are intrusive, treat and manipulate a lot.

Chris

 

[Finman]

What I find interesting is that most holier than thou views, if not down right insults, are being expressed by the people that are intrusive, treat and manipulate a lot.

Chris

how can you manipulate a beekeeper. He/she stands like a stone in its site. Never met that.

 

[Chris Luck]

Sorry, my grammatical error...I really am busy, (well, for a lazy person that is), try this.

What I find interesting is that most holier than thou views, if not down right insults, are being expressed by the people that are intrusive, treat and manipulate their bees a lot.

BTW, only being helpful, "He/she" can be replaced by "they".

Chris

 

[Bob Bee]

I could easily have gone either way when returning to beekeeping after a long break and can see the sense in ALMOST everybody's point of view. There are too many very arrogant proponents of any system. I do like this forum, this is another thread worth reading and everybody has something to learn. It takes a while to learn where to sprinkle pinches of salt when reading some posts but there's a always a good chuckle and always some useful experience.

I've two sites where I plan do my own thing (AMM bee improvement and other contentious things) . But also work with the local allotment to develop a bee-keeping area which will most likely have top bar/national/wbc/14x12's/poly and commercials. I'm hoping that everybody will co exist and help monitor and mentor each other. There's room for us all.

 

[Swarm]

But also work with the local allotment to develop a bee-keeping area which will most likely have top bar/national/wbc/14x12's/poly and commercials. I'm hoping that everybody will co exist and help monitor and mentor each other. There's room for us all.

Very well said Bob Bee!!
Surely everyone will agree, it's bees and their wefare that concern us most. If one method proves to be most advantageous, we should at the very least, consider this with open minds.

 

[Davelin]

The words 'natural' and 'keeping' do not sit easily alongside each other.

I have bird boxes and feeders in my garden; does this make me a natural blue tit keeper? I think not. Just someone who likes to encourage wildlife.

If on the other hand I go out a buy a nucleus of bees, that makes me a beekeeper and I feel I have a moral duty to look after those bees. How I, or anybody else does that is up to our own consciences, and the degree of intervention is our own decision.

The only truly natural way for bees is to leave them entirely alone in the wild, and that isn't really natural because they have all been selectively bred over the years and are no longer truly wild. Just like you can't do natural cattle farming because it's not a natural animal.

 

[Swarm]

Point taken, Davelin.
We see ourselves as keepers (from our view) the bees see a home in whatever description.
We simply provide a place for them to flourish. If I put out a bait hive and a swarm arrives, it would be very close to natural but I do understand what you are saying.

 

[The Cumbrian]

. Just like you can't do natural cattle farming because it's not a natural animal.

The wild cattle on the Chillingham estate might suggest this is not correct.

 

[Finman]

.
I have visited in Britain 6 times. I have seen very little natural nature there or lets say, original nature. How can you keep animals naturally when you have not natural nature there?

For example wood pigeon in England lives in home gardens. Here wood pigeon does not let a human 400 m closer. It flyes away very quickly.
We have now in Helsinki wood pigeon population, which is not afraid of people. It arrived from south about 5 years ago.

 

[OXFORDBEE]

but due to the miracle of the proventriculus, disease from drifting and robbing is much less likely than good old beekeepers unknowingly spreading disease when transferring brood frames

It is true that moving combs around willy-nilly between stocks is a good way of spreading disease. Spring equilisation of stocks is a good method of spreading disease; especially if the beekeeper is unobservant or does not know what they are seeing.

However, robbing is also a damn good way of spreading disease. This is why the NBU advise commercial beekeepers to seal hives that die during the winter. Bees robbing out dead stocks can be an efficient way of spreading nasties.

 

[Chris Luck]

Perhaps we could just agree that there are degrees of "management" and my bees are kept on my land with little management and some as I think I've mentioned before are just left alone completely without me even taking honey, they are just "there" so to speak, now that's quite natural and I think rather nice.

KTBH and Warré have a starter strip and I've gradually changed my Dadant hives over to foundation less, although I still have some that haven't had the BB "pulled out" for 5 or 6 years now. Those and any others will be left like that until they fail for one reason or another. I do wire the frames to give some support and providing the hive is horizontal in all directions the bees incorporate it in their comb. To me it's all a matter of reducing intensiveness, as with all other forms of agriculture, smallish organic production by preference.

Chris

 

[Finman]

.
Bee diseases have developed before that when first humans walked on this planet or came down from tree. Survival in nature is har to all animals. Don't even try to say that wild animals are heathier than domestic animals.

Do you know any domestic animal which does not have several diseases?

 

[Into the lions den]

Just how insulting do you want to be? No-one......repeat no-one......on this list seems to keep bees for the 'blatantly commercial' motivations you cite. Emotive and inflammatory accusation. Not the first time either.

ANYONE who wants to keep bees should do so, and adopt the system they choose. However to make a silly statement like the above beggars belief. Those of us lucky enough to have had the opportunity to do this for a living usually come at it from the point of loving bees first and been able to keep them sufficiently well to get that chance.

You almost seem to have decided that if a person is a success in bees, and gets a lot of honey, which they can sell, their views are of no value. Taking no honey, or very little is a virtue.

Fact. Healthy colonies with adequate forage given optimum conditions make a LOT of honey. Getting significant surplus honey is NOT a demerit, more a sign you are doing it right for yourself and your bees. The notion of this being exploitative and against nature is just wrong headed. Bees have no concept of being exploited, and the more resources they can gather the happier they seem to be (if indeed happy is another trait they can be said to have, more like they are focussed and the colony morale good). They will gather far far more than they need if given the chance.

An accusation of arrogance is being levelled at those who are not in agreement with you, and sitting with your level of inexperience and taking issue with successful experienced people like Finman and Oliver/RAB is really a bit rich. I am commercial of course and understand that I am to be despised. C'est la vie....I will not be losing any sleep. I am a bee lover first and commercial second....oddly enough the two sit quite well together as the first enables the second.[/COLOR]

All the good beekeepers I've come across have admitted that the more they learn, the more they realise they still have to learn.

Of course. I have seen no-one say otherwise. The first day I learn nothing about bees will be the day they screw the lid down.

As to advice being "catastrophic" for beginners, I took the advice as to how to "do it more naturally" - it works very well for me, as it does for many others, so I refute that nonsense completely as well!

You have not been at it long enough to say that. you are still within the honeymoon period that newbies get with fresh colonies. Your advice is*potentially* catastrophic. Untreated and infrequently checked colonies are a potential menace to your neighbours. Several other posters have indicated as such in a gentle way, but you seem to know better.

Yes, of course everyone can make their own mind up, but anthropomorphic thinking and belief based ideals that the bees know nothing about have little relevance to whether you will succeed or not. Experienced ( with say at least 10 seasons with a few hives and less than normal losses, plus good bee health) beekeepers, probably amateurs as the OP is to be such a person and advice should be relevant, are the ones to listen to as they know the subject of which they speak.

No disrespect to your organic ways, but it is a hard road to travel in beekeeping, where throughout most of the world the system has lower productivity and higher loss rates than most conventional beekeepers in the same circumstances. I wish you every success, and may your bees do truly well.

..

 

[Chris Luck]

No disrespect to your organic ways, but it is a hard road to travel in beekeeping, where throughout most of the world the system has lower productivity and higher loss rates than most conventional beekeepers in the same circumstances. I wish you every success, and may your bees do truly well.

I'll pick that up because round these parts, (SW France), that isn't the case at all, in fact in my area nothing could be farther from the truth. I've spoken to four keepers that "treat" in my locality recently and their losses are way beyond what I would consider acceptable, 40% last winter in one case. The main Bio, (Organic), producer I know, (registered with Eco-cert), about 20km away has almost zero losses. Lower productivity I'm happy with, in my case I allow my bees to swarm and the reduction in yield can be substantial.

Chris

 

[Brosville]

"quite frankly I'm happy to live without the respect of someone with frankly blatantly commercial motivations, and no tolerance for those who choose to "do it differently" - I stand absolutely by that statement - Finman has no respect whatsoever for "natural beekeepers" - he often says so, quite bluntly ad nauseam - he also admits to being "blatantly commercial" in his approach, and derides anyone who isn't - so as I said, if he doesn't respect me and my methods, that's his problem!

As for all this tosh about "you haven't been doing it long enough", and the frankly libellous accusations of spreading disease, a great many people have been practising "more natural beekeeping' for some years, some of them commercially with great success - I have learnt from some of them, and hope to continue doing so - as I've said, I'm a hobbyist with no desire to "maximise production", nor can I see any good logical reason to do so in my situation
As for "emotive and inflammatory", as other posters have remarked, all the venom seems to be from the other direction...

It's a great shame that so many people feel threatened when different approaches are being tried and attempt to smear the alternatives - one of my greatest friends in beekeeping has for decades taught beekeeping at a local agricultural college - we get on like a house on fire, and often give "an introduction to beekeeping" talk together -I've met open-minded commercial beekeepers at the Natural Beekeeping Conference who are willing to look at "alternative methods", so thankfully not everyone has the same blinkered attitudes....

 

[Into the lions den]

I'll pick that up because round these parts, (SW France), that isn't the case at all, in fact in my area nothing could be farther from the truth. I've spoken to four keepers that "treat" in my locality recently and their losses are way beyond what I would consider acceptable, 40% last winter in one case. The main Bio, (Organic), producer I know, (registered with Eco-cert), about 20km away has almost zero losses. Lower productivity I'm happy with, in my case I allow my bees to swarm and the reduction in yield can be substantial.

Chris

No quarrel with that......but the 'in the same circumstances' bit of the section you quote may be relevant. I know a lot of 'ECO' producers very well, starting with Bienen Betz. It is a tough way to go, and most of the eco ones are working within 'bio' or 'organic' standards, which are actually to do more with the inputs and the methods, and not about running tbh's and using no foundation or treatments per se. There are methods by which they combat the issues and are generally very labour intensive outfits. They do very well indeed, aided by the premium (albeit a declining one as the market is getting smaller) they get for their honey, but their input costs are pretty high, especially in labour.

Organic beekeeing, and the 'natural' beekeeping Brosville advocates, are not the same thing. We do some 'near organic' beekeeping for Duchy Originals. Varroa control is harder as quite frankly, thymol based treatments (permitted in bio/organic systems) are less effective than our rotating system of other methods, and colonies are getting to be in dire need of their oxalic acid long before it is the right time to use it.

I know Gerard Schiro well, from down near the Pyrenees, and was going to get some early season queen breeding done down there in an A.m.m. area. Upon examination there was too much AFB in the general area for this to be at all wise and I scrapped the scheme a few seasons back.[/I]

 

[drex]

Next year will be my third season. I started off through local assoc course and have just taken my basic exam.

Have kept Nationals thus far. Have just built a TBH as I want to see how it works and how different it is to framed hives. I have learnt a lot in just the building and researching of TBH management. I am keen to install bees into the TBH next year. ( Anyway I might be able to do it as part of the inevitable swarm control from my Nationals next season????)

Mentioned all this to my old bee teacher, who still offers advice, who jokingly said " you're fired", then smiling, said he had kept TBH's in the past and could advise if needed. He never judges.

So, I am going to give it a go, and hopefully will learn a lot.