My first Queen introduction

[HasBEEn]

Having made my hive queenless by inexperience, I found at the weekend that no further queen cells were being made and the frames were very full of either capped honey or nectar, with just a few capped Brood on a couple of frames.

Under advice from friends I have a queen coming tomorrow, but wondered what I should do with the existing frames as I fear there aren't many places for her to lay, but this worry could be my inexperience showing its face.

I had thought to swap a couple of frames for straight foundation, and another suggestion was to swap one for a frame of capped brood from another hive, but I'm really not sure

Thoughts and advice gratefully received.

Ian

 

[Ian123]

Hi Ian what makes you think they’re queenless and there’s not a virgin running around? Have you destroyed the cells yourself?

 

[jeff33]

A reliable friend would have suggested you undertake basic assessment to make sure there wasn't a virgin queen running in there.

When and how did you make that hive queenless and what happened since?

 

[HasBEEn]

Hi Ian what makes you think they’re queenless and there’s not a virgin running around? Have you destroyed the cells yourself?

I did indeed destroy the queen cells myself, but by sheer good luck had missed one. Having left it to open and hope for mating, I now have no QCs, larvae or eggs and so have concluded after three weeks that it's queenless. I have inspected weekly, and have not spotted a queen, just more and more stores being laid down. My other evidence is theat the nuc next to this was Q- at the same time and now has larvae and eggs.

Its not massively scientific or precise, my learning for this year is to keep a diary, even if its just basic details

 

[HasBEEn]

A reliable friend would have suggested you undertake basic assessment to make sure there wasn't a virgin queen running in there.

When and how did you make that hive queenless and what happened since?

Hi Jeff, hope that my reply to Ian gives an idea of the sequence of events and why I think I'm queenless, although I am now questioning it with both your comments and Ian's, and so perhaps I have a new problem in that I have a virgin queen in a honeybound hive, and another queen on the way that I now don't know what to do with...

 

[HasBEEn]

A reliable friend would have suggested you undertake basic assessment to make sure there wasn't a virgin queen running in there.

When and how did you make that hive queenless and what happened since?

As my "reliable friend" could well be reading this (hi Adam!) I will add a disclaimer that I may be misrepresenting the facts due to a faulty memory and the idiocy of not keeping records...

 

[W0otz]

As my "reliable friend" could well be reading this (hi Adam!) I will add a disclaimer that I may be misrepresenting the facts due to a faulty memory and the idiocy of not keeping records...

No records? What about the estimated emergence date we scribbled on the roof? What more do you need!
I think we wrote the 15th July, in which case there's still plenty of time for eggs to appear if there is a virgin in there.

But I also know you've told me various things about the hive since, so there may have been some reason we thought they were hopelessly queenless. Perhaps notes would have been useful after all!
I did say give them a test frame before ordering a queen. See if they draw emergency cells, if so then you can knock them down and introduce a bought-in queen.

You could always make up a nuc using the queen. If the hive is still queenless in a couple more weeks, unite the nuc with the hive. If there is a virgin and she gets mated then you've gained another colony.

 

[HasBEEn]

No records? What about the estimated emergence date we scribbled on the roof? What more do you need!
I think we wrote the 15th July, in which case there's still plenty of time for eggs to appear if there is a virgin in there.

But I also know you've told me various things about the hive since, so there may have been some reason we thought they were hopelessly queenless. Perhaps notes would have been useful after all!

You could always make up a nuc using the queen. If the hive is still queenless in a couple more weeks, unite the nuc with the hive. If there is a virgin and she gets mated then you've gained another colony.

See, lurky friends...

Let's just call it "very limited record keeping" then.

I'll look again first thing and do my damndest to spot her if she's there, and will make up a nuc for the new queen in case we do have a virgin...

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

No records? What about the estimated emergence date we scribbled on the roof? What more do you need!
I think we wrote the 15th July,

In that case, it's way too early to assume that hive is 'hopelessly' queenless. I wouldn't have expected a virgin that emerged on 15th of July to mate and be laying yet. I cerainly wouldn't have adbised anyone to run off and buy a new queen.
Putting a new queen in there is just sending her to a guaranteed quick death

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

'll look again first thing and do my damndest to spot her if she's there

and the last thing you want to do at the moment is to clatter around in a hive with a virgin poised to go off on a mating flight

 

[HasBEEn]

In that case, it's way too early to assume that hive is 'hopelessly' queenless. I wouldn't have expected a virgin that emerged on 15th of July to mate and be laying yet. I cerainly wouldn't have adbised anyone to run off and buy a new queen.
Putting a new queen in there is just sending her to a guaranteed quick death

OK, I have some facts from a dusk hive dash...

Two photos attached and the hive of concern has the Queen emerging on 08/07.

Our confusion has crept in due to the second photo of the nuc that was Q-, but we were unclear on the date the QC was capped (correct me if I'm wrong Adam) so it has a range of dates of 06/07 to 15/07. The nuc is the one with larvae and eggs, so could it be that it was the 6th and the Queen mated that quickly?

This is what made me think that the Hive was queenless, but I can already see my faulty thinking and the fact that bees don't have diaries everyone, so perhaps try not to ridicule me too much...

 

[Erichalfbee]

This is what made me think that the Hive was queenless

Stop thinking and KNOW
Put in a test frame and message your queen supplier to hold her back till you do know

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

the hive of concern has the Queen emerging on 08/07

still way too early to assume the hive is Q-

 

[W0otz]

Two photos attached and the hive of concern has the Queen emerging on 08/07.

Our confusion has crept in due to the second photo of the nuc that was Q-, but we were unclear on the date the QC was capped (correct me if I'm wrong Adam) so it has a range of dates of 06/07 to 15/07. The nuc is the one with larvae and eggs, so could it be that it was the 6th and the Queen mated that quickly?

The nuc was making swarm preps, we knocked it down to 1 chosen open queen cell. The dates on the nuc were to remind you to check for additional queen cells after the 6th (so they don't/didn't cast swarm), 15th was emergence date - quick check to make sure the qcell had emerged then close back up and leave alone for a few weeks.
But we're not talking about the nuc - it's got a laying queen now and all is well.

For the hive I've been trawling back through WhatsApp. (again, who needs hive records? )
26th June you found queen cells and knocked them all down, only to realise there were no eggs and they'd already swarmed.
29th June I popped round to take a look and they'd built and capped emergency cells - given no eggs on the 26th I estimated that a queen cell should emerge sometime around or before the 8th July, we picked the one appearing to get the most attention from workers and removed the rest.
9th July you checked on the hive and there were no queen cells - emerged or otherwise - and I think this might be where the suspicion of them being hopelessly queenless comes in. If a virgin had emerged in the days previously they tidied up pretty damn quick, though thinking about it are you sure you knocked all the queen cells down previously? I suggested giving them a frame with swarm cells on (or just a cell) from the nuc mentioned above to see what happens.
14th July you were already hinting at buying a queen and I said give them a test frame.



Anyhow, queen's coming tomorrowtoday (is that the time!) and there's still a chance of a virgin running around. Make up a nuc (frame or 2 of brood, frame of stores, queen cage between brood frames take to out apiary at least 3 miles away, keep entrance small, feed a couple of litres of 1:1). Go back in a few days and remove the tab(s) on the queen introduction cage, top up feed.

If the hive still appears queenless in a few more weeks then unite the nuc with the hive. If the hive sorts itself out then, assuming it gets through winter, sell the nuc next spring (if you don't want increase).

 

[HasBEEn]

The nuc was making swarm preps, we knocked it down to 1 chosen open queen cell. The dates on the nuc were to remind you to check for additional queen cells after the 6th (so they don't/didn't cast swarm), 15th was emergence date - quick check to make sure the qcell had emerged then close back up and leave alone for a few weeks.
But we're not talking about the nuc - it's got a laying queen now and all is well.

For the hive I've been trawling back through WhatsApp. (again, who needs hive records? )
26th June you found queen cells and knocked them all down, only to realise there were no eggs and they'd already swarmed.
29th June I popped round to take a look and they'd built and capped emergency cells - given no eggs on the 26th I estimated that a queen cell should emerge sometime around or before the 8th July, we picked the one appearing to get the most attention from workers and removed the rest.
9th July you checked on the hive and there were no queen cells - emerged or otherwise - and I think this might be where the suspicion of them being hopelessly queenless comes in. If a virgin had emerged in the days previously they tidied up pretty damn quick, though thinking about it are you sure you knocked all the queen cells down previously? I suggested giving them a frame with swarm cells on (or just a cell) from the nuc mentioned above to see what happens.
14th July you were already hinting at buying a queen and I said give them a test frame.
View attachment 33255


Anyhow, queen's coming tomorrowtoday (is that the time!) and there's still a chance of a virgin running around. Make up a nuc (frame or 2 of brood, frame of stores, queen cage between brood frames take to out apiary at least 3 miles away, keep entrance small, feed a couple of litres of 1:1). Go back in a few days and remove the tab(s) on the queen introduction cage, top up feed.

If the hive still appears queenless in a few more weeks then unite the nuc with the hive. If the hive sorts itself out then, assuming it gets through winter, sell the nuc next spring (if you don't want increase).

Christ you are a patient man late in the evening Adam, that's a trawl and a half of our chat...

Clearly some other nonsense stopped me doing the test frame on 14/07.

I think we have a plan here, and a resolution to keep hive notes so that my faulty memory doesn't play tricks with me in future, do what I am told when I'm told it i.e. with th e test frame, and when taking advice (not yours Adam!), be careful who suggests what to you as they may not be considering (or have been told) the whole picture when they say "buy a queen, here's some links".

Thanks to all who have contributed, and for being relatively gentle with me on my first post, I've seen some of the replies to others and some are not for the faint of heart...

Ian

 

[W0otz]

Christ you are a patient man late in the evening Adam, that's a trawl and a half of our chat...

It was more for my own sanity, I didn't think I'd told you to go buy a queen but was beginning to doubt myself.

It's a bit late to start rearing a queen (though they can and do supersede this time and later), so if a test frame indicated they were queenless I'd tear the cells down and buy one in.

 

[jeff33]

No records? What about the estimated emergence date we scribbled on the roof? What more do you need!
I think we wrote the 15th July, in which case there's still plenty of time for eggs to appear if there is a virgin in there.

But I also know you've told me various things about the hive since, so there may have been some reason we thought they were hopelessly queenless. Perhaps notes would have been useful after all!
I did say give them a test frame before ordering a queen. See if they draw emergency cells, if so then you can knock them down and introduce a bought-in queen.

You could always make up a nuc using the queen. If the hive is still queenless in a couple more weeks, unite the nuc with the hive. If there is a virgin and she gets mated then you've gained another colony.

Sense has spoken!!

 

[Beegarden]

Might I suggest that you go to https://portlandurbanbeekeepers.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/lifecycle_wheel_v3.pdf HasBEEn and print off the wheel. It's a useful ready reckoner, showing you the possible range from hatching to laying as well as worker and drone life cycles.

 

[HasBEEn]

Might I suggest that you go to https://portlandurbanbeekeepers.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/lifecycle_wheel_v3.pdf HasBEEn and print off the wheel. It's a useful ready reckoner, showing you the possible range from hatching to laying as well as worker and drone life cycles.

Cheers Beegarden, that is a very useful little thingummie!

 

[Moobee]

Cheers Beegarden, that is a very useful little thingummie!

And keep notes every time you inspect!!! Invaluable especially when you first start beekeeping….