Mite Mite counts in an apiary with resistant genetics

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I have been using maqs successfully in the autumn for a while with no problems now, but space does seem to be key. Double national broods are fine, singles a different story, I always put an empty box above the single when treating and all seems well. When I look at beebase and see 137 other apiaries within a 10 km radius I know that my treatment free days are some way off!
 
Only time I've visibly seen varroa mites on bees was during the period I used MAQS plus OA. Colonies built up OK but the drops were not acceptable, I lost two colonies that could only be put down to varroa load.
As I said, my mate uses it every year and he treats after removing the crop. He also uses no insulation and crown board holes are open and very rarely loses a colony.
 
Not to mention the small cell debacle.....
This type opinion is based on a false premise, that the foundation cell size we use today is correct for all situations.

Current foundation is mostly made with 5.3 rollers. By the time the wax stretches a tad in the process, it is often 5.4 or even 5.5 in the direction the rollers turn. This invites the question, is this the right size for the bees to use? When I stopped treating my bees in 2005, I changed over to 4.9 foundation as there was quite a bit of discussion that smaller cells reduced varroa reproduction. It was difficult to get my bees to accept the small cells, but after a couple of years, I had most of my bees on 4.9. What did I find? Well, there was no appreciable effect on varroa either good or bad. I still had mites in abundance in susceptible colonies. But what about other effects?

When I subscribed to Gleanings in Bee Culture in 1977, the January issue had an article by Charles Koover on using 31mm end bars for narrower frames along with some discussion of the advantages. Not knowing any better, I built a bunch of new frames using 31 mm end bars. As you may guess, there were problems. I goofed by using a standard frame with 35 mm end bars as a pattern reducing the joints to make it fit. It turns out that frames with reduced dimensions are not strong enough to withstand the pressure of wire to hold foundation in place. The joints were not strong enough to stand up to years of use. Add in the abundance of drone cells built around the edges and you can guess they worked up to a point but not exactly the way I thought they would. What did I do? I designed a frame specifically to meet the requirements of 31 mm spacing. You can read about it in this thread. https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?325985

Turns out, using small cells in narrow frames had an unexpected benefit. The bees built up earlier in the spring. I eventually figured out the reasons why by studying what was happening compared to bees on 5.3 foundation in 35 mm frames. A cluster of bees of a given size can cover a certain amount of comb. If you put more comb in the cluster, the bees produce more brood earlier. This is especially significant when the cluster is tight at temps below 7C. The combination of narrow frames with small cells gives a 27% advantage in terms of number of cells a cluster can cover. The resulting brood cycles shortened my normal 10 to 12 week spring buildup from 10 to 12 weeks to 8 or 9 weeks. That sounds lovely, but remember that bees love to swarm in the spring so what I achieved was colonies ready to swarm 2 or 3 weeks earlier that expected. I adapted by inspecting my bees in late march and pulling a 3 frame split from any near swarm strength.

But that was not the end of the story. My bees still did not like the 4.9 foundation and would re-work it over time to a mix of worker cells and drone cells. I don't like such mixed combs as they are a pain to remove for inspection and there was often brood on one face of the comb but not on the opposing comb.

When I decided in 2016 to convert my operation from Langstroth deeps with shallow supers for honey, I decided to also do something about the 4.9 foundation. I contacted Dadant and was told that in late 2016 they would do a special run of foundation at 5.1 mm as they market it in that size. I had to purchase 200 pounds to get it made both with 5.1 mm cells and Dadant frame size. I ended up with square Dadant hives, 31.5 mm end bars, and 5.1 mm cell size. The result has been abundantly satisfactory. The bees readily accept the 5.1 mm cells. Very little drone brood is produced in the frames. Each frame has 3 wires to hold the foundation in place and since the foundation is also wired, the entire sheet stays flat and properly positioned. The bees readily build brood cells on both sides of the comb and preferentially do not convert it to drone cells. If I want drones from a colony, I put a shallow frame in a deep box. The bees build drone comb on the bottom of the shallow frame. When the season is over, I remove the shallow frame and replace with a regular Dadant frame.

If you want to speed up buildup of a colony, use 31.5 mm end bars. 35 mm frames will slow down buildup. 38 mm end bars slows it down still further. This affects preparations for swarming such that Dadant originally chose 38 mm spacing for his hives based on the reduction in swarming. Unfortunately, neither Dadant nor Brother Adam ever tumbled to the concept of using end bar spacing to enhance spring buildup. In my climate, faster spring buildup is a very real advantage.

But what about uses for 4.9 foundation? Small bees love it. Africanized bees love it. Just don't expect it to help with varroa.
 
Only time I've visibly seen varroa mites on bees was during the period I used MAQS plus OA. Colonies built up OK but the drops were not acceptable, I lost two colonies that could only be put down to varroa load.
As I said, my mate uses it every year and he treats after removing the crop. He also uses no insulation and crown board holes are open and very rarely loses a colony.
What are you using now Steve ?
 
Hi E&M, I’m a new beekeeper as of this year. The advice from everybody at the club is to treat for Varroa, and people are using various chemicals from quite aggressive to mild.
I very carefully scraped the trays,bagged up the residues and looked at them at home with a x40 smartphone microscope attachment. I found very low varroa, and looking at DEFRA advice I have not treated. Am I wrong? I’ll let you know in Spring.
 
What are you using now Steve ?

I was using OAV after harvest and mid winter. Circumstances this year (Sciatica) put me off multiple visits so I opted for Apivar followed by a spring treatment rather than mid winter.
My colonies are all headed by native queens and mite numbers are not high, the Welsh natives in particular have very low mite drops.
 
Hi E&M, I’m a new beekeeper as of this year. The advice from everybody at the club is to treat for Varroa, and people are using various chemicals from quite aggressive to mild.
I very carefully scraped the trays,bagged up the residues and looked at them at home with a x40 smartphone microscope attachment. I found very low varroa, and looking at DEFRA advice I have not treated. Am I wrong? I’ll let you know in Spring.

I'm offering the view from the side that treat. Just suppose you find your colony fails to over winter due to varroa load. You can bet that your neighbouring beekeeper/s will also be paying the price, whether similar loss or extra treatment.
 
Yes, well people still insist that it works on sealed brood - however the manufacturer's claim has been proven erroneous - it doesn't,

They also claim it doesn't taint honey: I found out it does by testing extracted honey with litmus paper; turned out to be 100 times more acidic than the average ph of honey and tasted of lemon sherbet. Company weren't interested, brushed me off with the idea that it must be fermented. Heard of another beekeeper who had six supers of tainted honey.

Never again.
 
I'm offering the view from the side that treat. Just suppose you find your colony fails to over winter due to varroa load. You can bet that your neighbouring beekeeper/s will also be paying the price, whether similar loss or extra treatment.

:iagree:
Every year I have one or two hives robbing collapsing colonies and I have to treat their mites when they bring them home
 
We used MAQS on our bees in the spring in the Warre after the first season.
They'd failed to take down the apiguard in the autumn for some reason only they will know and we didn't want to use apiguard again for fear of tainting any honey.
The hive quickly recovered after treatment with no ill effect from the MAQS.
 
I was using OAV after harvest and mid winter. Circumstances this year (Sciatica) put me off multiple visits so I opted for Apivar followed by a spring treatment rather than mid winter.
My colonies are all headed by native queens and mite numbers are not high, the Welsh natives in particular have very low mite drops.
Thanks for info Steve,
Ive been using MAQS post harvest ( no counter effects- thats with brood and a half ) and OA dribble midwinter but am looking for a change next season.
Hope your Sciatica improves
Dave
 
I was using OAV after harvest and mid winter. Circumstances this year (Sciatica) put me off multiple visits so I opted for Apivar followed by a spring treatment rather than mid winter.
My colonies are all headed by native queens and mite numbers are not high, the Welsh natives in particular have very low mite drops.

I can recommend (yoga) spinal twists...daily...

I still have sciatica and occasional outbursts but it's now of the "my back hurts" rather than the "I cannot get out of bed it hurts so much" variety.
 
Hi E&M, I’m a new beekeeper as of this year. The advice from everybody at the club is to treat for Varroa, and people are using various chemicals from quite aggressive to mild.
I very carefully scraped the trays,bagged up the residues and looked at them at home with a x40 smartphone microscope attachment. I found very low varroa, and looking at DEFRA advice I have not treated. Am I wrong? I’ll let you know in Spring.

Mite counts mean nothing... .

Our Association apiary had one huge hive - minimal mite counts. In July two brood boxes and 6 supers of bees. By early September half a brood of bees. Huge (thousands) varroa drops.. We treated and treated and they survived but only just..

Never mind, it's only dead bees and lost money.:paparazzi:
 
I can’t see why any beek would not treat in the autumn if you don’t like the standard chemicals there are plenty of organic treatments/methods and I had a very similar hive to the 1 mentioned above. I gave up vaping and stuck in some amitraz. The only good mites a dead 1 quite frankly! Any reduction in mites reduces winter stress levels with the bees at their lowest ebb and will aid spring build up. Mite numbers may be low in comparison to bee numbers in the autumn but your first round of broods liable to get hammered.
 
Fall mite treatments, particularly late fall, are problematic because of several factors. The mite population is at the yearly peak after several generations of near continuous reproduction as the bees rear brood from spring through summer. The population of the hive is naturally declining as winter bees are raised. This means fewer bees for the mites to concentrate onto. Brood raised for winter bees tends to get high levels of mite infestation resulting in weak bees for winter and low numbers of healthy bees. This adds up to a colony that may die over winter even if autumn treatments are effective. This is why mite resistance is desirable. Even moderate mite resistance means a fall colony has significantly lower mite levels. This directly translates to bees that survive winter as compared to susceptible colonies that fail. A mite resistant colony is in far better health which applies whether the colony is treated or not.
 

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