Mite Mite counts in an apiary with resistant genetics

[Walrus]

Sorry, British humour.
His bees are clearly very well, despite rumours to the contrary.

Clearly?! Not so sure we can tell from here, but I guess it all depends what you are happy with (both in terms of mite load and honey yield).

 

[E&MBees]

How depressing that such an interesting and worthwhile thread should have degenerated into a ritual slanging match and points scoring exercise.

This is an important topic and an informed debate could have been extremely useful to beekeepers like myself who are relatively new to the trade/activity/hobby whatever.

I appreciate that any group of three beekeepers will have at least half a dozen different opinions on any matter. But how nice it would be if contributors could share their experience in a constructive way rather than belittling the efforts and conclusions of others.

After all this is not a war in which any one beekeeping dogma has to prevail. Progress in breeding Varroa resistance would benefit all beekeepers not to mention the bees, so let's turn this into a worthwhile discussion rather than just an opportunity to beat up other contributors with a different point of view.

I am so glad that the vitriolic nature of some of the posts has been noted. I am a new bee keeper, having started in June of this year and have a lot to learn. Like so many of our creatures, bees are under attack from many different forces that were not necessarily anticipated. Varroa is just one of many and there are many different approaches to controlling it. It would be really useful if the pros and cons of treating or not could be discussed in a more pragmatic respectful way. I rightly or wrongly some may think, do not to treat. I may have to review that decision, but the over use of medicines in farming and healthcare has not helped us in the long term. Are there others using the forum who do not treat?

 

[Walrus]

I am so glad that the vitriolic nature of some of the posts has been noted. I am a new bee keeper, having started in June of this year and have a lot to learn. Like so many of our creatures, bees are under attack from many different forces that were not necessarily anticipated. Varroa is just one of many and there are many different approaches to controlling it. It would be really useful if the pros and cons of treating or not could be discussed in a more pragmatic respectful way. I rightly or wrongly some may think, do not to treat. I may have to review that decision, but the over use of medicines in farming and healthcare has not helped us in the long term. Are there others using the forum who do not treat?

There are plenty of threads on this eg
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=44066&highlight=treatment+free

As a new beekeeper one of the best things you could do is find a local mentor who is an experienced beekeeper. There is a steep learning curve ahead, and not treating for varroa is a risky way to start (for you and nearby beekeepers).

 

[Anduril]

I am so glad that the vitriolic nature of some of the posts has been noted. I am a new bee keeper, having started in June of this year and have a lot to learn. Like so many of our creatures, bees are under attack from many different forces that were not necessarily anticipated. Varroa is just one of many and there are many different approaches to controlling it. It would be really useful if the pros and cons of treating or not could be discussed in a more pragmatic respectful way. I rightly or wrongly some may think, do not to treat. I may have to review that decision, but the over use of medicines in farming and healthcare has not helped us in the long term. Are there others using the forum who do not treat?

In answer to your question. Back in March when I went to the Welsh Convention, there was a speaker giving a talk on treatment free beekeeping. A direct question was posed to a Bee Inspector as to why the NBU do not support them. In reality if the NBU were to advocate not treating, then any new beekeeper who has paid £200 for a nuc plus all the equipment needed to start, say a minimum of £300. Your equipment as an investment would then be idle over the winter after a deadout. Then June comes along and you fork out another £200. How often will you be prepared to do that. The best solution is to treat, then when you feel confident and you have enough colonies and apiaries. Set one apiary aside to do your experiments. I would love to go back to the days pre varroa. There are treatment free areas in Swindon, North Wales and Leicester. However another aspect that is not addressed, is that the viruses can crossover to bumblebees. This might happen through bumbles being fed pollen collected by honeybees in the bumble farming industry or bumbles robbing from deadouts. The research is still ongoing. Treatment free may contribute to the demise of other pollinators.

 

[E&MBees]

In answer to your question. Back in March when I went to the Welsh Convention, there was a speaker giving a talk on treatment free beekeeping. A direct question was posed to a Bee Inspector as to why the NBU do not support them. In reality if the NBU were to advocate not treating, then any new beekeeper who has paid £200 for a nuc plus all the equipment needed to start, say a minimum of £300. Your equipment as an investment would then be idle over the winter after a deadout. Then June comes along and you fork out another £200. How often will you be prepared to do that. The best solution is to treat, then when you feel confident and you have enough colonies and apiaries. Set one apiary aside to do your experiments. I would love to go back to the days pre varroa. There are treatment free areas in Swindon, North Wales and Leicester. However another aspect that is not addressed, is that the viruses can crossover to bumblebees. This might happen through bumbles being fed pollen collected by honeybees in the bumble farming industry or bumbles robbing from deadouts. The research is still ongoing. Treatment free may contribute to the demise of other pollinators.

Treating versa not treating is something that I have thought about a lot. There are a number of experienced bee keepers in my area who do not treat and others that do. Is there a comprehensive chart somewhere that lists all the treatments, the times, types, pros and cons? I have spent many hours looking on the internet but the advice is often confusing and conflicting. I do have a trickle bottle and some Api Bioxal, which was suggested as an effective treatment when the hive is broodless. I’m sure that many will say that is not the right one, but which one is!?

 

[Anduril]

http://www.nationalbeeunit.com/downloadDocument.cfm?id=1059 The MAQS treatment can be used with the supers on, the others after the flow. Some of them are temperature dependant.

 

[Poly Hive]

Is there a chart?

Not that I know of no.

I would take Andurils advice personally.

I use oxalic trickle once a year and in my relatively isolated area that is sufficient, I find. In busier more populated places it may well not.

PH

 

[Anduril]

Go to page 28
http://www.nationalbeeunit.com/downloadDocument.cfm?id=16

 

[E&MBees]

Go to page 28
http://www.nationalbeeunit.com/downloadDocument.cfm?id=16

Thank you. I will have a read.

 

[Fusion_power]

E&M, I concur with the others that treating is your best option as a new beekeeper. The risks are not just for your bees that may fail, but the production of huge numbers of mites that infest other beekeepers colonies. If you truly want to go treatment free, do due diligence first by finding out what is required in your area and by requeening with queens that have the required genetics. It must be understood that there are trade-offs with bees that are not treated for mites. For example, a beekeeper near you might let a colony die with mites which your bees would then rob bringing the mites home by the thousands. In this scenario, even a highly mite resistant colony can be overwhelmed. A thought from the field of medicine when it comes to bees, "first do no harm".

While it is not often advocated on that side of the pond, an IPM approach is highly viable with bees. This is the method used at Auburn University to keep mites in check. They use approved treatments only when mite counts suggest it is necessary. A mite count is best done with an alcohol wash. Typical treatment thresholds are when mites reach 3 to 5 percent. There are plenty of articles and videos on the net about doing alcohol washes.

 

[E&MBees]

E&M, I concur with the others that treating is your best option as a new beekeeper. The risks are not just for your bees that may fail, but the production of huge numbers of mites that infest other beekeepers colonies. If you truly want to go treatment free, do due diligence first by finding out what is required in your area and by requeening with queens that have the required genetics. It must be understood that there are trade-offs with bees that are not treated for mites. For example, a beekeeper near you might let a colony die with mites which your bees would then rob bringing the mites home by the thousands. In this scenario, even a highly mite resistant colony can be overwhelmed. A thought from the field of medicine when it comes to bees, "first do no harm".

While it is not often advocated on that side of the pond, an IPM approach is highly viable with bees. This is the method used at Auburn University to keep mites in check. They use approved treatments only when mite counts suggest it is necessary. A mite count is best done with an alcohol wash. Typical treatment thresholds are when mites reach 3 to 5 percent. There are plenty of articles and videos on the net about doing alcohol washes.

Thank you. Which treatment would be most appropriate now? My bees are still active, with some brood present. Temperatures are fluctuating a bit, but most days by midday are above 10c.

 

[SDM]

Thank you. Which treatment would be most appropriate now? My bees are still active, with some brood present. Temperatures are fluctuating a bit, but most days by midday are above 10c.

Why are you still opening them to know there is brood ?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Treating versa not treating is something that I have thought about a lot. There are a number of experienced bee keepers in my area who do not treat and others that do. Is there a comprehensive chart somewhere that lists all the treatments, the times, types, pros and cons? I have spent many hours looking on the internet but the advice is often confusing and conflicting. I do have a trickle bottle and some Api Bioxal, which was suggested as an effective treatment when the hive is broodless. I’m sure that many will say that is not the right one, but which one is!?

The advice is confusing and conflicting because it all works differently for different people. You are looking for a shortcut which doesn't exist. I'm not being patronising but it's down to experience.

Take MAQS for example. It was introduced in this country maybe ten? years ago as the perfect answer to a one hit treatment in late summer. It had been available in the USA for some time and there were warning about it. Ever ready to try something new I took the plunge and treated all four of my colonies. I lost two queens despite taking extra precautions over space suggested on the American fora. I have not used it again. Other people have used it time and time again for those ten years and are happy with it.

I agree with previous advice to treat, build up your numbers then experiment.
Even Fusion who feels he has nigh on the perfect bee lost lots of colonies when he started.

As for vitriolic posts about TF....well you just have to accept that people's opinions are very polarised on this and it does get heated. It's not a perfect world and this forum is a grown up place

 

[madasafish]

The advice is confusing and conflicting because it all works differently for different people. You are looking for a shortcut which doesn't exist. I'm not being patronising but it's down to experience.

Take MAQS for example. It was introduced in this country maybe ten? years ago as the perfect answer to a one hit treatment in late summer. It had been available in the USA for some time and there were warning about it. Ever ready to try something new I took the plunge and treated all four of my colonies. I lost two queens despite taking extra precautions over space suggested on the American fora. I have not used it again. Other people have used it time and time again for those ten years and are happy with it.

I agree with previous advice to treat, build up your numbers then experiment.
Even Fusion who feels he has nigh on the perfect bee lost lots of colonies when he started.

As for vitriolic posts about TF....well you just have to accept that people's opinions are very polarised on this and it does get heated. It's not a perfect world and this forum is a grown up place

I tried MAQs the first time this year on colonies and nucs. And failed to kill any queens. But Lang jumbos are big hives so plenty of space for vapours to thin out. Others with nationals did not fare so well..

I would go treatment free but have not enough hives to afford the inevitable losses..And do not intend to expand.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I tried MAQs the first time this year on colonies and nucs. And failed to kill any queens. But Lang jumbos are big hives.

That is why people came a cropper initially - the MAQS instructions failed to state that the dosage indicated was for Dadant hives, as the VMD licence was issued on those quantities and instructions, they could not change it without going through the whole costly licencing process again. It's taken word of mouth to get it right

 

[Fusion_power]

The most common treatment currently used by hobbyists over here is Oxalic Acid either as a spray/dribble or as vapor if one wishes to build or purchase a vaporizer. I've seen several articles about making a vaporizer from a diesel engine heat plug.

 

[madasafish]

The most common treatment currently used by hobbyists over here is Oxalic Acid either as a spray/dribble or as vapor if one wishes to build or purchase a vaporizer. I've seen several articles about making a vaporizer from a diesel engine heat plug.

I built mine using that in 2015/6. Still going strong

 

[Swarm]

That is why people came a cropper initially - the MAQS instructions failed to state that the dosage indicated was for Dadant hives, as the VMD licence was issued on those quantities and instructions, they could not change it without going through the whole costly licencing process again. It's taken word of mouth to get it right

Me and Craig tried it when it first became available and we worked that one out and changed the dose accordingly. IIRC, we used it the following year as well and while we lost no queens, we both found it to be ineffective.
My mate swears by it and has used it for years, again, no losses.

To the OP, IPM (integrated pest management) is very much trial and error. Taking into account temp dependency, supers in place or off, you need to find something that suits you and your bees.
And just to put your mind at rest, we are all still looking for the best treatment regime. I changed mine this year

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Me and Craig tried it when it first became available and we worked that one out and changed the dose accordingly. IIRC, we used it the following year as well and while we lost no queens, we both found it to be ineffective.

Yes, well people still insist that it works on sealed brood - however the manufacturer's claim has been proven erroneous - it doesn't, so either you need to have it on for a whole brood cycle or hope there's not much brood in there

 

[Erichalfbee]

And just to put your mind at rest, we are all still looking for the best treatment regime. I changed mine this year

What have you done this year?