Mite Mite counts in an apiary with resistant genetics

[Beefriendly]

?
Sesquipedalian is in my Oxford English dictionary.

It's a shame that these threads always get polarised.

Yup. I'm quite interested in Fusions project. Totally different environment to UK where what he is doing is possible due to relative isolation.
Many breeders now have VSH bees which need no treatment, some are even on offer for sale. They don't (currently) breed true so in my books treatment is cheaper than the queens as thier offspring will not be VSH.

 

[drex]

@ fusion power. When I started beekeeping I had very feisty bees, as I knew no better. I have gradually selected for bees with a better temperament. I would rather treat for varroa than to have to endure inspections while being stung to death. Each to their own. Good on you.

 

[Ian123]

Once Africanised be genes are in the mix it’s all rather irrelevant to those of us this side of the pond isolated or not. A point our friend rather glosses over. Africanised bees tolerate varroa it’s well known and understood and I’ve spent some time handling them.

 

[bingevader]

I can't buy resistant/tolerate bees and even if I could they'd be Heinz 57 within a year or two.
Still waiting then.
I don't really understand why resistant/tolerant bees aren't a huge issue.
Imagine not treating?!
It would fit in so well with the "cheaper and easier" mantra!
I'm assuming, at least at the moment, that there there must be a honey production trade off?

 

[Ian123]

Google buckfast zucht commercialy available vsh bees

 

[Fusion_power]

I would rather treat for varroa than to have to endure inspections while being stung to death.

So would I. But note that I work my bees in a t-shirt, jeans, and veil. I'm 4 seasons from bringing in the BWeaver queens so my bees are considerably less aggressive than they were in 2015.

I'm assuming, at least at the moment, that there there must be a honey production trade off?

I'm currently producing 30 to 35 kg of honey per colony per year conditional that I put some time into preventing them from swarming and that they have a decent queen. A dink hive is still a dink even if the bees are varroa resistant. The average for this area pre-varroa was about 40 kg.

One thing that was commented on yesterday was my apparent isolation from other beekeepers. I showed Geoff the single hive located about 2 km away from my bees belonging to a leave-them-alone beekeeper. The only other beekeeper with enough bees (7 colonies) to make a difference is roughly 8 km to the west. I am of the opinion that varroa resistant stock will only be viable when the majority of beekeepers in an area start using them. Fortunately, this area has an abundance of beekeepers who do not regularly requeen. Most of them do not treat for varroa. There are still a few that bring in commercial package bees every year which is very detrimental to mite resistance.

 

[bingevader]

Google buckfast zucht commercially available vsh bees

Yes, but...

even if I could they'd be Heinz 57 within a year or two.

 

[bingevader]

I'm currently producing 30 to 35 kg of honey per colony per year conditional that I put some time into preventing them from swarming and that they have a decent queen. A dink hive is still a dink even if the bees are varroa resistant. The average for this area pre-varroa was about 40 kg.

And all that from "sick" bees! Well I never!
We had 18kg from one super.
The bees had the rest.

 

[SDM]

were the resistant bees you deliberately flooded the area with swarms come from ?

 

[bingevader]

were the resistant bees you deliberately flooded the area with swarms come from ?

I'm not sure that's English as we know it, but if the post is directed at me, then I'll give it a go!

As I have just said, I treat my bees because I have to, because the beekeepers around me do and their drones are contributing to the makeup of the bees I have now.
I've done my best in the past to buy "hygienic" and "local" bees.
I don't know where you get your misinformation from, but I practise swarm control each year because we're in a town and I wouldn't want to upset the neighbours.
I do however think that swarming is a natural reproductive process, not a curse!
We caught five swarms in school this year.
One was ours, our swarm management didn't succeed.
Were the other four from local beekeepers who deliberately flooded the area with their swarms of unhygienic and non local bees then?!

 

[Michael Palmer]

And all that from "sick" bees! Well I never!

Here, sick bees are dead bees. Dead bees make no honey. Now, about healthy bees...most years they make a hundred average crop. This year...well over 100. Many 200 or more. Several made 240. Sure we're always working on breeding. Sure it's been 30 years already with little gain on the varroa front. If someone were to send me their "resistant" bees, I would put them to the test. Don't think that will ever happen.

 

[Fusion_power]

I've posted this before if you care to go back and read. I caught a swarm in 2004 that showed strong mite tolerance. This was 10 years after losing almost all of my bees to varroa in the winter of 1993/1994. That colony showed A.M.Mellifera traits with very dark bees, very aggressive behavior, foraging at low temps (4C), and wintering with almost no honey. They were booming by early April 2005 during the fruit bloom. At that time, Purvis was selling mite resistant queens selected by a stringent survival program. I purchased 10 gold line queens and used them to produce drones to mate with queens raised from my swarm queen. I then pushed my bees to swarm heavily in 2006 and 2008. We had a spring freeze on April 7th 2007 killing most of the blooms for the main flow so my bees did not swarm at all that year. Here is a link: https://web.archive.org/web/20050403184500/http://www.purvisbrothersbees.com/

In 2012, I purchased a few queens from Carpenter Apiaries http://www.carpentersapiaries.com/ and integrated them. Carpenter's bees were selected for mite grooming traits. There was an uptick in losses to mites for 3 years then they stabilized with most colonies surviving the winter of 2014/2015. In 2015, I purchased 3 queens from BeeWeaver https://beeweaver.com/ because I was having significant problems with hive beetles. I kept one of the queens for breeding and culled the other two for being too aggressive. I have not purchased any stock since 2016.

My bees today draw heavily on traits from the 2004 swarm queen. They winter with small colonies typically clustering on 3 Dadant frames. They build up rapidly for spring. I pull 3 frame splits from strong colonies in late March usually bringing the old queen with the split and letting the parent hive raise a queen. Most years, the split and the parent hive make a crop of honey. I usually don't see much swarming after making splits.

As you saw in the first post, mite resistance is clearly present in my bees. I need to work on getting all colonies down to levels below 2% infestation.

 

[SDM]

Purvis gold line were AHB's
AHB's were the reason they packed up the operation and moved lock stock to lawrenceburg in 2009
And so are the beeweaver queens you added.
Carpenter is in a heavily africanised area. So you basically flooded your area with Africanized bees.
From what I've seen of VSH colonies in Hawaii you've a way to go on resistance. In the ones I know of roughly 25% had zero mites, 50% under 1% and the remainder under 3% (mostly 1-2%) and that in an area where bees are usually treated 4 times a year.

 

[Fusion_power]

I live 69 miles from Leoma, TN and have spoken to Dann Purvis on the phone a few times. I asked about the source of his bees. He stated where and how he got his original start which was not from an Africanized source. Leoma TN is a few miles south of Lawrenceburg. Why he moved to Leoma is not what you state and not particularly my business.

The one thing I am certain of is that Purvis' gold line did not behave like Africanized bees. I worked Africanized bees in Mexico a few years ago. They are off the chart aggressive. Dann's bees were less aggressive than the Buckfast bees I was keeping at the time.

He also moved to Colorado Springs and was living there the last time I spoke with him. I don't know where he is currently as that was a few years ago.

 

[SDM]

Seems it was the reason given to a local paper when the move was announced .
Primorski was what he started with wasn't is ? But that's not going to be what they were a few years after being in an AHB area.

 

[Popparand]

How depressing that such an interesting and worthwhile thread should have degenerated into a ritual slanging match and points scoring exercise.

This is an important topic and an informed debate could have been extremely useful to beekeepers like myself who are relatively new to the trade/activity/hobby whatever.

I appreciate that any group of three beekeepers will have at least half a dozen different opinions on any matter. But how nice it would be if contributors could share their experience in a constructive way rather than belittling the efforts and conclusions of others.

After all this is not a war in which any one beekeeping dogma has to prevail. Progress in breeding Varroa resistance would benefit all beekeepers not to mention the bees, so let's turn this into a worthwhile discussion rather than just an opportunity to beat up other contributors with a different point of view.

 

[Fusion_power]

After all this is not a war in which any one beekeeping dogma has to prevail. Progress in breeding Varroa resistance would benefit all beekeepers not to mention the bees, so let's turn this into a worthwhile discussion rather than just an opportunity to beat up other contributors with a different point of view.

On this, we can totally agree.

Just to add perspective, this area and Northern Georgia where Dann Purvis developed his bees are not considered "Africanized" areas. Africanized bees do not survive very well in this climate. This does not prevent hybrids with a high percentage of northern adapted genetics from living here. Beeweaver's queens would be considered such. At the time Dann was developing his bees, Africanized bees were only in the SouthWestern U.S. Dann was indeed working primarily with Primorski stock.

I don't quite understand the preoccupation with Africanized bees anyway. I've had pure Italians that were too hot to handle. I've worked A.M.Mellifera colonies that were off the charts aggressive. It is completely possible to breed for gentle Africanized bees. Consider the relatively gentle Africanized bees that live in Puerto Rico.

 

[bingevader]

Here, sick bees are dead bees. Dead bees make no honey. Now, about healthy bees...most years they make a hundred average crop. This year...well over 100. Many 200 or more. Several made 240. Sure we're always working on breeding. Sure it's been 30 years already with little gain on the varroa front. If someone were to send me their "resistant" bees, I would put them to the test. Don't think that will ever happen.

Sorry, British humour.
His bees are clearly very well, despite rumours to the contrary.

 

[Ian123]

https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...ge4#/topics/342583?page=1.........interesting video and discussion on treatment free beekeeping and why it’s best to avoid ahb, fusion I think you even posted on it

 

[Fusion_power]

Yes, I posted in that thread and I strongly agree with Jim Lyon. If my bees acted like that, I'd get out of beekeeping. There would be too much liability of someone being injured or killed. That is very much what I saw in Mexico in 2015.