Merging/combining advice please

[Beanwood]

I have a 14x12 brood box, with too few bees no queen and no brood.
Four feet away (1 hive in between and facing a different direction) is a 14x12 nuc with a queen that I want to merge.

Can anyone confirm, best time of day would be the evening?
The Nuc doen't have a removable base. IF I use the air freshener method, can I just drop the frames and bees from the nuc into the full size box?
How would the bees I'm moving know which hive to return too? Would stuffing the entrance with grass work?

Thanks as always...

 

[Andy Duff]

Buy some more equipment and do it right, rather than poisoning your poor bees?

 

[MandF]

Using sugar syrup spray is another, less chemical, alternative for a direct unite. And cheaper than air freshener or new hive kit

 

[Tom Bick]

First are you 100% confident the BB is Q-

If you can move the BB a couple of feet towards the nuc and when you then combine should prove no problem on distance that said perhaps 4' may be no problem.

As for just putting in the frames with the BB I have not done it that way before but I understand on small colonies its no great problem. It may be best not to place the frame with the queen on right next to the first frame in the BB but keep her as far away as possible.

 

[Poly Hive]

If you're going to use the plonk them in method I would do this.

Intersperse the frames between the BB's and the nuc's. Cage the queen for safety. Use a spray of some sort to mask scents. I use perfumed water.

PH

 

[oliver90owner]

My comment on 'different' methods is why try new methods, with any risk of getting it wrong, while your colonies are limited in number and you have little ability to repair any mishaps.

The newspaper method is a well proven and relaible method for beginners.

How would the bees I'm moving know which hive to return too?

Simple one this. Does it really matter? Returning foragers would find a new home with little problem, if it actually occured that they returned adjacent to the next door hive but on the wrong side. So a non-issue.

Again 'a different direction' could be from a few degrees up to 180. 180 is the worst case. Time is needed for them to get into a different colony, so weather may be an important factor.

You could turn/move your intervening hive a little if you have the mind to do it. There are simple options/precautions (like turnig the hives to the same direction before doing the unite, collecting stragglers and returning them is another) if you are really worried.

Just plan things and learn that preparation is likely the biggest part of the job.

 

[Beanwood]

Thanks all,

Yes, they're definitely Q-, so, as I don't want to cause more risk than necessary I think I'm looking at the following:

Turn both nuc and brood 45degrees, They're 90 degrees at the mo) so they face the same direction, and move 18" closer at the same time (?)
Make up a spare brood box I already have flat packed
Place a piece of newspaper over the Q- colony, with six slits in it
New brood box on top
Place the Q+ colony frames in new brood box.
Leave alone for a few days.
Is that it?
I don't have a queen cage, and haven't read that they're widely used in this circumstance.

Do I want or need a QX in there somewhere? I can't see why I would, but seem to recall reading to put it in between the two boxes.?

 

[jackbee]

i've got a 14x12 brood box built if you want to borrow beanwood, give us a call if you want it

are you going for a scout badge this summer - you seem to be doing it all - building boxes, routing top bars for TBS , building nucs, swarms, buying nucs, queen cells, trap-outs and now combining

one hell of a summer

all you need for the badge is some honey

 

[Tom Bick]

Thanks all,

Yes, they're definitely Q-, so, as I don't want to cause more risk than necessary I think I'm looking at the following:

Turn both nuc and brood 45degrees, They're 90 degrees at the mo) so they face the same direction, and move 18" closer at the same time (?)
Make up a spare brood box I already have flat packed
Place a piece of newspaper over the Q- colony, with six slits in it
New brood box on top
Place the Q+ colony frames in new brood box.
Leave alone for a few days.
Is that it?
I don't have a queen cage, and haven't read that they're widely used in this circumstance.

Do I want or need a QX in there somewhere? I can't see why I would, but seem to recall reading to put it in between the two boxes.?

Sounds like a plan. The bees need only a few pinholes in the newspaper. If you rotate and move the BB and the nuc give them a couple of days before combining. Finally if all looks well from the entrance perhaps give them a week before you inspect.

No need for a qx that works on a windy day to stop the newspaper blowing away.

 

[MandF]

Do I want or need a QX in there somewhere? I can't see why I would, but seem to recall reading to put it in between the two boxes.?

Yes, simply because after the unite you want to run down the Q- brooded frames, and remove them. If you dont have a QX then she could move down into your current Q- brood box and start laying there, which means another 3 weeks + to wait for them to clear up and be able to remove them.

Once they are united (with QX), I believe most people swap around the brood boxes so the q+ portion is on the bottom with the entrance.

 

[oliver90owner]

I have a 14x12 brood box, with too few bees no queen and no brood.Four feet away (1 hive in between and facing a different direction) is a 14x12 nuc with a queen that I want to merge. (my underlining)

Seems to me that the Q/E is a non-issue, other than to retain the newspaper.
There will be plenty of space in the one box after uniting. Any spare stores will come in handy for feeding later, if nothing else

 

[meidel]

Another thing to think about, I know you've been advised to put just a few holes but if you have fewer bees in the top box you might want to put more holes in the paper as I've found that a unite takes longer if the top box is very low on bees or made up of more nurse bees than foragers. But if you're not too worried about a slow unite then it's fine.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

I have united colonies by 'plonking them in' but this was in early Spring with smallish colonies and behaviour is different then. I've used icing sugar on the donor stock and kept the queen and her brood together at one side of the hive, donors at the other. Worked. No dead bees. I would be concerned about doing it at this time of year.

Newspaper is a reliable method, not worth risking anything else IMO.

 

[Beanwood]

i've got a 14x12 brood box built if you want to borrow beanwood, give us a call if you want it

are you going for a scout badge this summer - you seem to be doing it all - building boxes, routing top bars for TBS , building nucs, swarms, buying nucs, queen cells, trap-outs and now combining

one hell of a summer

all you need for the badge is some honey

Hmmm - yes I know I wanted to learn more, but I hadn't intended to do QUITE so much in the first 5 months Looks like I need to learn from someone that hasn't had all the 'experiences' I've had, but WILL be getting some honey !! Can I let you know about the BB please.

Yes, simply because after the unite you want to run down the Q- brooded frames, and remove them. If you dont have a QX then she could move down into your current Q- brood box and start laying there, which means another 3 weeks + to wait for them to clear up and be able to remove them.

Once they are united (with QX), I believe most people swap around the brood boxes so the q+ portion is on the bottom with the entrance.

The only brood in the Q- hive is on the test frame I put in - and I'll move that back into the top box, to prevent any QC's being raised in the mean time. I'd hate the little madams to try and raise a queen whilst I'm trying to unite them with one....

There will be plenty of space in the one box after uniting. Any spare stores will come in handy for feeding later, if nothing else

Spot on O90 there will bee plenty of space.

Thanks all for your replies - next steps here we come.

 

[REDWOOD]

I have a 14x12 brood box, with too few bees no queen and no brood.Four feet away (1 hive in between and facing a different direction) is a 14x12 nuc with a queen that I want to merge. (my underlining)

Seems to me that the Q/E is a non-issue, other than to retain the newspaper.
There will be plenty of space in the one box after uniting. Any spare stores will come in handy for feeding later, if nothing else

with above but still like the air freshener method

 

[Beanwood]

but still like the air freshener method

... and really want to try it, but on balance, these bees need a lifeline urgently, and if the newspaper method works as reliably as it's suggested, I'll try that first.

I may well end up merging two more before winter, if so, I might try the 'can of fresh air' route.

 

[jackbee]

Can I let you know about the BB please.

no prob, it's not going anywhere

 

[Beanwood]

Thank you all my learned friends - as Sherlock Holmes may say 'The games afoot'.

Or in clearer language, I've given it a go. I've decided to go the newspaper route, but with a QX, purely so that I KNOW the queen will be in the top box if/when they complete the unite.

Here goes for another two weeks of hoping, and trying to avoid opening the hive to look

 

[Polyanwood]

....... and trying to avoid opening the hive to look

You don't need to wait two weeks. That's just for when you are waiting for a virgin and don't want her to be disorientated coming back from a mating flight because you have the hive open. I would tidy it up as soon as there is newspaper chewed up and thrown out or definitely within a week. They are a small colony and you need to reduce the space and get them dummied up to give them the best chance as soon as practicable.

 

[Beanwood]

You don't need to wait two weeks. That's just for when you are waiting for a virgin and don't want her to be disorientated coming back from a mating flight because you have the hive open. I would tidy it up as soon as there is newspaper chewed up and thrown out or definitely within a week. They are a small colony and you need to reduce the space and get them dummied up to give them the best chance as soon as practicable.

Thanks Polyanwood. I DID know that (Honest), and had just confused myself.

I'll leave them alone for a while, and see what happens over the next few days.