Lost Gardens go Native

[TooBee...]

...I test my stock according to a recommended set of tests (see Coloss). I've yet to see ANY results from Amm enthusiasts.

(bold emphasis added by me)

Is this true? Are there any Comparison Tests like this for (the pure) AMM's, especially the local eco-types (am I using the correct terminology - to differentiate between the dominant Irish eco-type and say Brittany AMM eco-type?), compared to other strains of bees (what's the scientific term I should be using instead of strains, is it sub-specie for AMM and then 'eco-type of sub-specie', bit of a mouthful, I don't want to use the term 'race' to describe bees, we don't do it for dogs or sheep!)

 

[B+.]

Perhaps we should all move forwards by first taking a step or two backwards.

Wise words!
I was once on a forum which had very few posts. I learned a lot because the posters considered the few words that were spoken. They were balanced and informative.

 

[Beefriendly]

Is this true? Are there any Comparison Tests like this for (the pure) AMM's, especially the local eco-types (am I using the correct terminology -

A couple of years back I ran a couple of colonies of Amm's queens alongside my Buckfast and Buckfast F1 hives.
Their capping's where as pure as snow...if I was into entering comb in competitions I'd keep Amm's purely for that facet alone.
One hive never got above 5 /6 frames of brood so I discounted that....in fact they got quickly re-queened as going nowhere.
The other was a double brood queen giving just about the same numbers of bees as the Buckfast double brood. Not quite as easy to handle as the buckfast but not bad.
However, even situated in the same apiary the Amm's only brought in about a 1/3 of the amount of honey as the buckfast..They could do with some selection in this direction. They were also martyrs to chalk brood.

Small population number to base any comparisons on, but talking to others who have done exactly the same; the comparisons hold up quite well, including the chalk brood.

 

[B+.]

(bold emphasis added by me)

Is this true? Are there any Comparison Tests like this for (the pure) AMM's, especially the local eco-types (am I using the correct terminology - to differentiate between the dominant Irish eco-type and say Brittany AMM eco-type?), compared to other strains of bees (what's the scientific term I should be using instead of strains, is it sub-specie for AMM and then 'eco-type of sub-specie', bit of a mouthful, I don't want to use the term 'race' to describe bees, we don't do it for dogs or sheep!)

In BeeBreed there are a number of Amm groups:

A.m. mellifera

Code Name
DE-24 Landesverband Brandenburgischer Imker e.V./Mellifera
DE-28 Landesverband der Imker Mecklenburg Vorpommern e.V./Mellifera
DE-34 Imkerverband Sachsen-Anhalt e.V./Mellifera
DE-35 Landesverband Schleswig-Holsteinischer und Hamburger Imker e.V./Mellifera
CH-50 Verein Schweizerischer Mellifera Bienenfreunde
NO-1 Norway/Mellifera
AT-1 AMZ (Austrian Mellifera Züchter)
BE-2 Limburgse Zwarte Bij (LZB vzw)
PL-1 Poland/SmartBees/Mellifera
FR-1 France/Mellifera

The decision of which groups to set up are usually done at the national level as there is quite a bit of co-ordination to do. I am not aware of any that restricts itself to ONLY those bees available within their own area though. The gene pool would probably be too small. The groups I'm aware of all operate at the "race" level but with a Geographic slant. For example, the Dutch group (which I am a member of) breeds carnica but the line is open i.e. It uses the best examples of carnica from other countries as well as their own. This is how the breeding values are so high. In 2017, they even sent NL-Line virgin queens to Wangerooge (German island in the Wadden Sea) because the drone mothers being used were better. In 2018, they had drone mothers of German origin on the Dutch island of Vlieland. What I am trying to illustrate is that the heritable traits (as expressed in breeding values) are more important than artificial national considerations.
There are 4 German groups in that list though (DE is the ISO country prefix). I am not sure why there are so many. It may be that it is a hang-over from the previous structure, which was predominantly German with local associations, or they may have different breeding objectives. I don't know although the fact that they are all e.V. organisations means they have independent legal status.

 

[domino]

Why can't they import them from wild stocks in northern Europe?

I raise queens, my only ambition is they don't follow. Apart from that, I'm good.

 

[Finman]

Why can't they import them from wild stocks in northern Europe?

.

In what north country you have wild stocks?

 

[B+.]

Why can't they import them from wild stocks in northern Europe?

I raise queens, my only ambition is they don't follow. Apart from that, I'm good.

Breeders work within a defined population. The goal is to improve the performance of selected traits generation after generation. Introducing "wild" genes would be like throwing a spanner in the works.
The breeding goal is to improve performance across a range of traits, including docility, honey production, swarming, etc....but the ability of the colony to manage its varroa population without treatment is the biggest challenge at the moment. Some populations are further down that road than others.

 

[Swarm]

A fundamental truth, eloquently articulated, you are displaying a commendable understanding of the social principles on which the keeping of bees should be based. So why do you constantly adopt such an adversarial attitude here on the forum, I doubt that would be you in real life? Both B+ and Beefriendly are knowledgeable and approachable and do not seek confrontation and neither do I. There is no sense in following the lead of Jenkins, he is at war with the world, though mercifully seems to have been silenced at the moment. Perhaps we should all move forwards by first taking a step or two backwards.

The answer may well be contained within your reply. Does it make you feel superior to address another adult as if you were talking to a child?
An ounce of common sense would tell you it is bad form.

Before pointing the finger, understand that when I see rubbish written about the bees I love and keep, I will respond.
When you see me taking constant swipes at other bee types, feel free to pull me up, until then, climb down from the ivory tower.

 

[domino]

Breeders work within a defined population. The goal is to improve the performance of selected traits generation after generation. Introducing "wild" genes would be like throwing a spanner in the works.
The breeding goal is to improve performance across a range of traits, including docility, honey production, swarming, etc....but the ability of the colony to manage its varroa population without treatment is the biggest challenge at the moment. Some populations are further down that road than others.

So the preservation of AMM is essentially the preservation of a domesticated breed, like Berkshire pigs - just less tasty.

 

[Quis Custodiet]

So the preservation of AMM is essentially the preservation of a domesticated breed, like Berkshire pigs - just less tasty.

Perhaps cultivated apples V wild crab apples.

 

[TooBee...]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swarm,
"The truth is simple, people are free to choose what bee they want to keep and they should be free to do so without ridicule and/or contempt..........."

A fundamental truth, eloquently articulated, you are displaying a commendable understanding of the social principles on which the keeping of bees should be based....Perhaps we should all move forwards by first taking a step or two backwards.

To paraphrase above 'beekeepers should be free to choose what bee they want to keep', the point I just want to make, is a major issue I have come across is an attempt by some beeks to attempt to get Associations to pressure and then compel their members to keep one particular bee breed, and then openly talk of getting it made compulsory throughout the County and then Country, that really puts peoples backs up against the wall.

To paraphrase another (very experienced) beek, 'Extremist positions are the new normal', which makes me think, to resist these perceived extremist positions one feels a necessity to push back all the more forcefully, I think that this may be in some part the reason why the issue of bee breeds can cause so much emotions: Both sides, from their own point of view think that they are fighting for their own (bees) survival.

 

[Quis Custodiet]

Quote:
......... Both sides, from their own point of view think that they are fighting for their own (bees) survival.

Yours was an excellent post, though it would be more correct to say the "fighting" done by Carniolan and Buckfast beekeepers is against misrepresentation, deceit, fabrications and down right lies and in some instances physical attacks and criminal damage by zealots in the AMM fraternity. Not everyone who keeps AMM bees is a zealot, very many are kind decent people....it is important to make that clear. It is also curious that up to about twenty five or thirty years ago, beekeepers of all persuasions shared a peaceful co-existence in Ireland at least.

 

[Uncle Betty]

the point I just want to make, is a major issue I have come across is an attempt by some beeks to attempt to get Associations to pressure and then compel their members to keep one particular bee breed, and then openly talk of getting it made compulsory throughout the County and then Country, that really puts peoples backs up against the wall.

Sounds just about as believable as this yarn...

...hive burnings, hives damaged by vehicles driving into them, hives riddled with shotgun pellets, de facto exclusion from some associations, intimidation of beekeepers living on their own....to name but some outrages

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=606378&postcount=97

No prizes for guessing the 'author'.

Anyway, a poster of integrity soon showed it for what it most likely is - malignant, fake news.

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=606393&postcount=107

Get a life.

 

[domino]

[..] I have come across is an attempt by some beeks to attempt to get Associations to pressure and then compel their members to keep one particular bee breed, and then openly talk of getting it made compulsory throughout the County and then Country, that really puts peoples backs up against the wall.

My BKA would get a short two-word answer.

 

[For want of a better word]

My BKA would get a short two-word answer.

Mine too... and Devon !!!
Chons da

 

[Quis Custodiet]

Mine too... and Devon !!!
Chons da

I am pleased to say there are many AMM beekeepers here who would also give that response and in some cases have done so, at least in a metaphorical sense.

 

[SDM]

Sounds just about as believable as this yarn...



https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=606378&postcount=97

No prizes for guessing the 'author'.

Anyway, a poster of integrity soon showed it for what it most likely is - malignant, fake news.

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=606393&postcount=107

Get a life.

I'll see if I can find the Facebook posts where some.nasty scrubber with the surname Mac Giolla Coda started demanding the names and addresses of any commercial beekeepers who kept Buckfast or Carnica and wanted the names of the honey.packers that bought from them so she could pressurise them.
My own association won't take nucs unless.theyre.local blacks, such attitudes and indoctrination of.beginners.is all too common.
There's good reasons why the Irish Buckfast and carniolan keepers Facebook group keeps.its members names concealed, many of them have been on the receiving end of anti non native sentiment.
BIBBA is now apparently influencing defra policy.in the UK.
Denial of pressure from native beekeeping groups would seem to me to be an act of wilful ignorance.

 

[B+.]

BIBBA is now apparently influencing defra policy.in the UK.
Denial of pressure from native beekeeping groups would seem to me to be an act of wilful ignorance.

Don't forget the BBKA. They're just as guilty.

 

[For want of a better word]

Don't forget the BBKA. They're just as guilty.

We need to invent more conspiracy theorys.... makes beekeeping interesting!

Mytten da

 

[Beefriendly]

We need to invent more conspiracy theorys.... makes beekeeping interesting!

Don't need to invent them they already exist.
Look at the BBKA breeding certificate....unless you keep and breed mongrel bees you fail it.
Ask B+ he did