Let's allow bees to swarm !

[RodBromiley]

Hi, I'm a New-Bee so please be patient and understand my ignorance. If the world is short of bees and the natural way of bees multiplying is swarming, why do we not encourage it ?
Shouldn't we stack up a super or two, collect a bit of honey for our larder and encourage swarming.
Of course if a swarm lands on a hospital or school then remove it and re home them.
If we as beekeepers are about supporting and helping nature are we not doing actually the opposite ?

 

[user 6228]

Hi, I'm a New-Bee so please be patient and understand my ignorance. If the world is short of bees and the natural way of bees multiplying is swarming, why do we not encourage it ?
Shouldn't we stack up a super or two, collect a bit of honey for our larder and encourage swarming.
Of course if a swarm lands on a hospital or school then remove it and re home them.
If we as beekeepers are about supporting and helping nature are we not doing actually the opposite ?

There's not enough suitable nest sites for that...

 

[pargyle]

Hi, I'm a New-Bee so please be patient and understand my ignorance. If the world is short of bees and the natural way of bees multiplying is swarming, why do we not encourage it ?
Shouldn't we stack up a super or two, collect a bit of honey for our larder and encourage swarming.
Of course if a swarm lands on a hospital or school then remove it and re home them.
If we as beekeepers are about supporting and helping nature are we not doing actually the opposite ?

As a new beekeeper you will probably be doing this whether you want to or not ... we all lose swarms occasionally but bees are expensive and if you really want to keep bees then part of your beekeeping responsibility is to manage swarms ... if you want to increase the bee population beyond your own apiary then split your hives and sell the surplus - there will always be people wanting to buy bees. £180 - £240 for a full size colony is the current market price.

 

[RodBromiley]

I really don't understand your point. I mean this in a polite and non aggressive manner. But surely we cannot claim the world is short of bees but as bee keepers we hold back bee colony growth by stealing honey and stopping swarming which is actually bee expansion ?

 

[RodBromiley]

Thanks Pargyle
I'm not trying to be a ass, I promise. But surely we shouldn't be selling bees but passing them on and encoraging swarming in woods etc.
I really hope my point does not come across as being difficult.
I personally keep bees for a odd jar of honey but mainly to help bees and the environment.
Hope your well and thank you for the polite reply.

 

[pargyle]

I really don't understand your point. I mean this in a polite and non aggressive manner. But surely we cannot claim the world is short of bees but as bee keepers we hold back bee colony growth by stealing honey and stopping swarming which is actually bee expansion ?

We are not really short of bees in the UK ... there are a very limited number of feral (wild) colonies in the country these days ... the result of the declining habitat that they are really best suited for - how often do you see hollow trees around these days - or the sort of nooks and crannies that they used to find in old buildings. We have problems with imported bee pests and diseases that unmanaged colonies get no help in combatting.

The forage that used to be available in the countryside (meadows, hedgerows, orchards) has been decimated by the change in agriculture since WWII and there simply is not the forage to support large numbers of feral colonies - our towns and cities probably now support as many colonies as you find in rural areas.

The vast majority of bee colonies in the UK are now managed and despite a bad year in 2012, when we faced high winter losses, the situation is now looking pretty healthy in terms of colony numbers ... most of the beekeepers I know increased their colony numbers last year and many of them are now at the maximum they would want to manage.

Now .. we do have a problem with pollinators in general .. also the result of the changes in agriculture and even domestic gardens and you should probably be more concerned with the endangered situation we face in pollinating insects as they provide an irreplaceable element of the food chain on all sorts of levels.

There is a serious situation with bees in the USA but honey bee farming is very different over there and their farming methods make ours look like Toyland.

You are barking up the wrong tree with this thread ...

 

[BeeJayBee]

... If the world is short of bees and the natural way of bees multiplying is swarming, why do we not encourage it ?
Shouldn't we stack up a super or two, collect a bit of honey for our larder and encourage swarming.
Of course if a swarm lands on a hospital or school then remove it and re home them.
If we as beekeepers are about supporting and helping nature are we not doing actually the opposite ?

I know Chester very well. In which part of the city would swarming bees be a welcome experience?

What would happen to a swarm? Would it end up in a tree or in a building, where it could cause a nuisance and end up being killed or would it end up on the street, to be collected by a willing beekeeper who's just had to stop what they were planning to do that day to carry out a public service - completely free of charge!

Why would it be more important to move a swarm from a hospital or school than from any other building? Would it be right to leave a colony of bees inside a shop fascia, just above the door, or inside a lamp post or a meter box?

A careful beekeeper does their best to manage swarming. They don't prevent colony increase per se, but make sure that "the natural way of bees multiplying" is managed by working with their bees at the appropriate time - when the colony is preparing to swarm.

The new colony ends up in a box where it, and future increase, is well looked after and at no risk of being destroyed just because somebody doesn't want bees in their roof, doesn't want the swarm that's landed on their car etc.

And, actually, the world isn't 'short of bees' and there are many varieties of bees. In some countries, other than UK, the honey bee farmers aren't doing themselves any favours.

 

[Hivemaker.]

But surely we shouldn't be selling bees but passing them on and encoraging swarming in woods etc.
I really hope my point does not come across as being difficult.
I personally keep bees for a odd jar of honey but mainly to help bees and the environment.
Hope your well and thank you for the polite reply.

To many bees are their livelihood, they are relied upon to pay all of the bills/wages, so many, if not all of those, would not be a part of the "we"

 

[RodBromiley]

Thanks for the reply. As you may know Chester is a small city surrounded by millions of acres of countryside. Every bee course teaches us to stop swarming. But swarming is actually bee multifiction
You mention that there's not a bee problem in the world , maybe I really am a New -bee !

 

[BeeJayBee]

Every bee course teaches us to stop swarming. But swarming is actually bee multifiction

Every bee course should teach you to manage swarming. The most commonly taught swarm control measures mean you end up with two colonies - which the beekeeper can combine later in the year, or keep as two colonies.

It's one of the reasons why new beekeepers suddenly find themselves with more hives than they want or can manage to maintain - two colonies first year, four colonies second year, eight colonies third year etc!

It doesn't much matter where you live - would your neighbours be happy to have a swarm land on their house and make home in the roof or chimney? If not, then you need to be responsible and try to make sure you take pre-emptive action to stop swarms leaving your apiary by working with your bees natural impulses and keep the new colonies in a container of some sort.

 

[Hivemaker.]

But swarming is actually bee multifiction

So would this be if it worked out okay.

http://www.apimondiafoundation.org/foundation/files/137.pdf

 

[RodBromiley]

Or what we are saying is, let's stop bees being natural, let Beekeepers decide when they should multiply by swarm control and honey robbing ? I'm not being a ass guys. I'm just challenging things. I entered this to help bees and have a jar of honey occasionally. Maybe I'm different to most ?

 

[RodBromiley]

So what's the answer ?

 

[pargyle]

Thanks for the reply. As you may know Chester is a small city surrounded by millions of acres of countryside. Every bee course teaches us to stop swarming. But swarming is actually bee multifiction
You mention that there's not a bee problem in the world , maybe I really am a New -bee !

Yes ... I know Chester as well ... but firstly - think about what bees actually forage on .... then go out into the millions of acres and look and see what the actual crops are that are being grown. Look at the dairy farms around (there's a lot in your neck of the woods) and at the weed free, flower free grass pastures the cows graze on. Look at all the old barns and bires that are now des res surrounded by brick paviours and ever green shrubs - home for the executives working 30 miles away down the motorway who don't grow food crops in the back garden or tend to allotments. Have a look and see how many apple orchards are still there and what is in the hedgerows.

So ... there's more to it.

Not every beekeeping course teaches people to STOP swarming .. most courses teaches people to MANAGE swarm behaviour in bees ... usually by increasing the number of colonies. ie: Artificial swarm ... you either end up with two colonies or if you combine them back in the endgame - a big colony. Either way - it's more bees.

I lean very much towards the tree hugging side of beekeeping but even I think it would be bloody silly to even consider just letting swarms emanate from a hive in the hope that they would increase the bee population generally.

 

[Hivemaker.]

There is a serious situation with bees in the USA but honey bee farming is very different over there and their farming methods make ours look like Toyland.

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=477894&postcount=17

 

[RodBromiley]

Thanks BeeJay
But surely we should encourage bee multifiction and move the " neighbour " and hospital and school ones.
2/3 of the UK is open land !

 

[RodBromiley]

I visited a guy today with 7 hives. That's actually quite small. But there's no way you can manage swarming and that's not a big apiary
My point I'd that if a person near a rural location gets a swarm should he just not let it "bee" ?
Or are we now all geared up to humans control nature
All my comments said in a non aggressive way.

 

[BeeJayBee]

Or what we are saying is, let's stop bees being natural, let Beekeepers decide when they should multiply by swarm control and honey robbing ?

No, that isn't what I've said and is not what you have been taught.

Read about swarm control and you will see that beekeepers take action when the colony prepares to swarm, otherwise they're mostly left alone.

The majority of beekeepers will control where the colony swarms to, but only when they see queen cells. They do it by moving an 'artificial swarm' to another box in the apiary, rather than letting the bees just take off to some random site, somewhere in the neighbourhood, where they could be thought a nuisance, and could end up being destroyed.

A careful beekeeper does their best to keep their bees, doesn't let them go, and will pass on spare colonies to new beekeepers or those who have lost colonies over winter! These 'spare' colonies will be the result of careful swarm management.

 

[pargyle]

Or what we are saying is, let's stop bees being natural, let Beekeepers decide when they should multiply by swarm control and honey robbing ? I'm not being a ass guys. I'm just challenging things. I entered this to help bees and have a jar of honey occasionally. Maybe I'm different to most ?

Oh dear ... as someone who:

a: Keeps bees without treating them.
b: Has them on foundationless frames.
c: Allows them to overwinter on honey and not sugar.
d: Doesn't use smoke.
e: Interferes with them only when I consider intervention is necessary.

I consider that I keep my bees in as natural a way as possible but you have to remember that 'keeping' bees is not natural anyway ... their 'natural' home is a hollow tree and they will never have any intervention. The reality you need to grasp is that, in the UK, without beekeepers there would be a whole lot less bees than there are now.

How you conduct yourself as a beekeeper after you accept that premise is up to you. The one common factor I find amongst beekeepers is that they all care deeply about their bees and a colony loss is a tragedy.

Whether you consider taking honey from a hive is 'robbing' is immaterial - bees will continue to make honey whilst they have space and forage available - far more than they can consume over winter for the most part. As long as they are left with sufficient stores to keep them fed, where is the harm in removing the honey they don't need ?

I don't preach my way of keeping bees as the right way or the only way so, whether you choose to take honey or not, or you decide to become what Finman usually calls a 'leave alone guy', is up to you - but whatever you do consider the consequences for your bees, the people who live around you and ultimately you.

There is no answer to your question in the UK because, as I see it, there is no problem.

You have, probably, inadvertently, put the backs up of about half the forum members by suggesting that what they do is unnatural, taking honey is 'robbing' and by intimating that your way of keeping bees is 'different'. I'd put your tin hat on if I were you ....

 

[pargyle]

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=477894&postcount=17

Yes .. what I said was a gross generalisation .. but I've been to Mike Palmers sustainable apiary talk and even he agrees that the way some bee farmers in the state keep bees is not sustainable. We've all seen the pictures of the road trains of bee hives doing circuits and bumps of thousands of miles around the various monocrops and the fields with no breaks from horizon to horizon. There are problems in the USA ... perhaps not on the scale that the media would have you believe but they are there.