Langstroth: harmony frame rotation method

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Roybaz

New Bee
Joined
Jul 12, 2012
Messages
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Location
Walton-on-Thames,England
Hive Type
WBC
Number of Hives
2
I have been doing a bit of reading and came across this beekeeping method. Is anyone familiar with it and/or have a view. Both sides of the argument (less interference and natural swarming versus a lot of intervention and no swarming) makes for interesting reading. Would be good to hear some views from experienced bee keepers.
Thanks
Roy
 
After my 50 years with Langstroths, I have no idea what it might be ,. And i am not interested those terms what I see.

.natural swarming? Interference?
Frame rotation is essential and nothing to do with swarming.
 
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Having followed the link, it appears that there's some chap called "Marley" who posts long and rambling messages on someone else's blog about "harmony frame rotation". He says it is brilliant and solves all known beekeeping problems. But nobody else has ever heard of "harmony frame rotation", and Marley is so incoherent that it's impossible to work out what he's talking about.

I'd say ignore "Marley" and look elsewhere for advice.
 
I have been doing a bit of reading and came across this beekeeping method. Is anyone familiar with it and/or have a view. Both sides of the argument (less interference and natural swarming versus a lot of intervention and no swarming) makes for interesting reading. Would be good to hear some views from experienced bee keepers.
Thanks
Roy

Where to begin?

The basic tone of the site seems to be more to do with the writer's (and some contibutors) belief structure than with what is best for the bees. It is a complex mix of good stuff, anthropomorphic stuff (which sucks in novices) and nonsense.

Comb rotation is a good idea. It does not need 'feelgood' names like a 'harmony frame' for what appears to be a drone frame. But you need to know what you are doing with this. Just as an example, it seems the author isin a varroa free area (I think western Australia) so a drone frame is not the potential varroa factory it is here when it is allowed to hatch rather than as a varroa trap.)

Bear in mind the author is not living in a UK environment. Our climate and flow patterns are not conducive to this constant meddling and insertion of empty frames into the nest. You can do it during nectar flows and the spring expansion phase, but at other times, especially if you have near native black bees, the new frames can act as a barrier, and we have seen swarming CAUSED by insertion of the frames, not alleviated by it, if the timing and circumstances are wrong, or if some of our staff have been let loose a tad early and inserted two empties together in error.

Rotating out old combs to be melted out? Fine. We date stamp all our frames since the 2009 EFB outbreak, but do this as a plan to reduce the risk of disease build up. The reducing cell size and consequent reduction in bee size is one of the oft repeated myths of the craft/trade and has been said so many time that it became accepted as fact and stidies were produced to show it. Yet its still drivel. Bees love old comb, they clean it out every spring (brown papery dust outside the entrance tells you what they are up to) and HAD some combs identified as at least 50 and in the case of one pattern Dave Cushman identified for us, 70 years old. Brood combs of such age, bred in most years, yet the bees from them were indistinguishable from any others and the cell walls were not thick. Should have been producing bees the size of fruit flies by then. These old combs are now all gone from our units but they were always the ones laid in first, and were swarm magnets if they were ever used for that purpose.

There is also nothing new about the concept of removing lots of brood from the nest to eliminate congestion, a common swarm trigger. Its the basic priniple behind the Demaree system and simplified Demaree system, which is over 100 years, works fine, and requires less faffing about. Lots of ways to do it, and lots of reasons for doing it.

You have good windows for new comb insertions in this country, but you have to be able to read the colonys state, the weather, and other factors, and if things are not favourable (no nectar flow, nest not expanding, queen slow in laying which is common in dearths) then instead of expanding the nest you are dividing it up, and foundation sheets in those circumstaces can act more like a dummy board than a potential new brood comb. For example we NEVER insert new combs in the June gap, though we will split or demaree using drawn comb if needed. (June gap unlikely to be an issue (for US) in 2013 as it is going to be a very compressed season)

No need to restrict yourself to two new frames per season either. If the bees are in the mood let them have as many as they will take, but successionally, not more than two at a time, and never more than one for every four bars of brood, so two is only for strong colonies, and never together, always at least one bar of brood between them. ( I can enlarge on that if asked)

Its a superficially simple subject but lots of nuances to it that mean you can do it right one week and exactly the same manoever a couple of weeks later can be wrong. Consult an experienced local mentor if in doubt.
 
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Where to begin?

The basic tone of the site seems to be more to do with the writer's (and some contibutors) belief structure than with what is best for the bees. It is a complex mix of good stuff, anthropomorphic stuff (which sucks in novices) and nonsense.



Its a superficially simple subject but lots of nuances to it that mean you can do it right one week and exactly the same manoever a couple of weeks later can be wrong. Consult an experienced local mentor if in doubt.


Thanks for such an understandable explanation
 
.
In USA beekeepers tend to keep very black frames. You see it from videos and from pictures.

My style is that when a comb does not penetrate sun light, I pul it off from production.

How many percent? I have not such figures. In USA bees brood year around and I have brooding months 4-5.

Lots of combs will be damaged in extraction and in wintering.

Hives draw new combs in main flow as mch as I want. I need not "encourage" them.
AS system produces quite much too those new combs.

.melting old combs and taking wax off is not nice job but it is valuable stuff when I sell raw wax to foundation maker. New foundation cost is then 3.50 euros/kg.

.
 
This isn't frame rotation it's comb replacement.

Good practice seems to be to aim for complete replacement every 2-3 years.

that could be bailey comb change or shook swarm.

many people aim to swap out 2 per season BUT as ITLD states - so long as you just do 1-2 frames at a time when bees are in the mood it's possible to do several changes per season.
 
This isn't frame rotation it's comb replacement.

Good practice seems to be to aim for complete replacement every 2-3 years.

that could be bailey comb change or shook swarm.
on.

that is for idiots if they do not know better themselves.


I have 60-70 frames per hive and I hange tem if I need to.

I have changed frames before I have headr about Bailey.

In beekeeping you really need not every week something authorized nursing system.
Named abc
the most difficult is however to make 1:1 syrup. It s better to feed 3 fold more expencive food intead, which is same ssugar.

. Oh boy how to keep one hive is so difficult. In same time you nurse them 10.
 
Finman - most UK hives are 1-2 boxes of brood. and most beekeepers are small scale.

so not too much trouble changing out all comb regularly.

How do you reduce nosema? comb change PROVEN to be as effective as the now banned chemical treatment.
 
Where to begin?

The basic tone of the site seems to be more to do with the writer's (and some contibutors) belief structure than with what is best for the bees. It is a complex mix of good stuff, anthropomorphic stuff (which sucks in novices) and nonsense.

Comb rotation is a good idea. It does not need 'feelgood' names like a 'harmony frame' for what appears to be a drone frame. But you need to know what you are doing with this. Just as an example, it seems the author isin a varroa free area (I think western Australia) so a drone frame is not the potential varroa factory it is here when it is allowed to hatch rather than as a varroa trap.)

Bear in mind the author is not living in a UK environment. Our climate and flow patterns are not conducive to this constant meddling and insertion of empty frames into the nest. You can do it during nectar flows and the spring expansion phase, but at other times, especially if you have near native black bees, the new frames can act as a barrier, and we have seen swarming CAUSED by insertion of the frames, not alleviated by it, if the timing and circumstances are wrong, or if some of our staff have been let loose a tad early and inserted two empties together in error.

Rotating out old combs to be melted out? Fine. We date stamp all our frames since the 2009 EFB outbreak, but do this as a plan to reduce the risk of disease build up. The reducing cell size and consequent reduction in bee size is one of the oft repeated myths of the craft/trade and has been said so many time that it became accepted as fact and stidies were produced to show it. Yet its still drivel. Bees love old comb, they clean it out every spring (brown papery dust outside the entrance tells you what they are up to) and HAD some combs identified as at least 50 and in the case of one pattern Dave Cushman identified for us, 70 years old. Brood combs of such age, bred in most years, yet the bees from them were indistinguishable from any others and the cell walls were not thick. Should have been producing bees the size of fruit flies by then. These old combs are now all gone from our units but they were always the ones laid in first, and were swarm magnets if they were ever used for that purpose.

There is also nothing new about the concept of removing lots of brood from the nest to eliminate congestion, a common swarm trigger. Its the basic priniple behind the Demaree system and simplified Demaree system, which is over 100 years, works fine, and requires less faffing about. Lots of ways to do it, and lots of reasons for doing it.

You have good windows for new comb insertions in this country, but you have to be able to read the colonys state, the weather, and other factors, and if things are not favourable (no nectar flow, nest not expanding, queen slow in laying which is common in dearths) then instead of expanding the nest you are dividing it up, and foundation sheets in those circumstaces can act more like a dummy board than a potential new brood comb. For example we NEVER insert new combs in the June gap, though we will split or demaree using drawn comb if needed. (June gap unlikely to be an issue (for US) in 2013 as it is going to be a very compressed season)

No need to restrict yourself to two new frames per season either. If the bees are in the mood let them have as many as they will take, but successionally, not more than two at a time, and never more than one for every four bars of brood, so two is only for strong colonies, and never together, always at least one bar of brood between them. ( I can enlarge on that if asked)

Its a superficially simple subject but lots of nuances to it that mean you can do it right one week and exactly the same manoever a couple of weeks later can be wrong. Consult an experienced local mentor if in doubt.
Thanks for your time and response. Roy
 
Finman - most UK hives are 1-2 boxes of brood. and most beekeepers are small scale.

so not too much trouble changing out all comb regularly.

How do you reduce nosema? comb change PROVEN to be as effective as the now banned chemical treatment.

all combs?

It is religion like system and it is not based on scientific research.

AFB is a reason to change all combs but not nosema.

Or like here it is advised that if you have crystallized honey in combs, so destroy them.

Others believe that they can exctract crystallized honey.
.
 
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.
Like Lionel writes, best time to get new combs is flow.
To draw one box of foundations, bees consume 6-8 kg honey to build combs and excrecete wax.

To renew 5 boxes frames means about 35 kg honey. In money 200 or what?
 
What ever.

You need not to teach how to keep bees in unefficient way. It happens however.


But if a beekeeper makes more damage to honey yield than nosema, system is not right.

It is interesting that 2-hive owners make a beekeeping theory in UK.

Basic is
"I heard"
I know an old beek
Inspector said
we have a climate
national consensus

and so on


.
 
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It is interesting that 2-hive owners make a beekeeping theory in UK.
Basic is
"I heard"
I know an old beek
Inspector said
we have a climate
national consensus
and so on.
:iagree:
Not only the 2-hive owners...

Regards
Reiner

P.S.
I agree with Finman on this one:

"AFB is a reason to change all combs but not nosema."
 
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- - Lionel - - is this a 'vain' (empty, vane - Fin) attempt at re-christening? <rhetorical of course>
 
- - Lionel - - is this a 'vain' (empty, vane - Fin) attempt at re-christening? <rhetorical of course>

the famous British Humour , I suppose

when I now inspect hives after winter, I can pick black combs away.
Wintered in 2 box, the lower is now empty. There are too mouse eaten and so on.

Finally temp rised yesterday to 20C . Willow has bloomed 7 days.

Spring picking is good because frames do not have pollen.
 
Harmony Frame Rotation Method

I have just added my name into this UK Beekeeping Forum. After 15 years of reading and experimenting with our local bees as well as listening attentively to hundreds of stories about OP's (other people's) wild and wonderful tales of stings and things the rotation method simply evolved in quite a logical way. I was enjoying a coffee one morning with a new student of mine, she was keen to become a BK and collect honey. She looked up after the completion of the first theory lesson and remarked...its all about energy! The common denominator between bees and humans is...energy! Watching the behaviours of local birds and their group dynamics as well as fish and comparing same kept me going until the HFRM (rotation method) clicked into place. It was the last piece in a giant jigsaw puzzle. For those of you keen to learn more and to convince yourselves that this HFRM indeed has great merit, beg steal or borrow (the dog whisperer) Cesar Millan's PEOPLE TRAINING FOR DOGS VOL ONE. Concepts of energy are explained. There are similarities when dealing with bees. To leave you with the briefest possible summary of HFRM the BK starts working with his QB from the first day after she enters her world inside a full depth nucleus hive (5 FR box). After she begins her egg laying cycle into clean freshly built combs, the BK every 3 days checks her and adds fresh foundation frames and removes the sealed w/brood frame allowing the support bees in the brood nest to be continuously building combs onto the new foundation. Essentially here the BK allows hatching of new bees and removal of surplus brood. The support bees must never be idle, always working and pleasing their queen. The role of the BK is to enhance the dominant role of the QB. After 6 weeks of close attention and frequent inspections and introduction of new foundation frames (cleanliness is very important) the QB connects to her BK as a source of constancy and reliability. Next the contents of the nucleus hive are transferred to a full depth brood box and every 2 weeks, filled sealed brood frames are rotated above the QE and fresh foundation frames are added into the brood spaces. The cry of the students following HFRM is IN, UP, OUT.
The bees NEVER swarm. Marley.
 
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