Karl von Frisch, Nosema, Nazi & Carnica

[TooBee...]

Hi
I've been reading up about Karl von Frisch, the beekeeping researcher that brought to our attention the Waggle Dance,... apparently he was declared 1/8 Jewish, which was known to the Nazi's but he survived as his research into bees was considered vital to the war effort

Which brings me nicely onto this;
In my readings about him I've come across references to the following, BUT I haven't been able to get any solid info. on them, just passing references in books and on websites, just a couple of lines or so:

1. Apparently there was a Nosema epidemic raging across Germany and neighboring countries around 1940-41, "it destroyed several hundred thousand bee colonies"* (I bet you some poor beekeeper muttered under his breathe, "it can't get much worse than this....")! His research into this was a major reason why the Nazi's funded his research! Does anyone have more info. on this epidemic, I'm guessing maybe German websites, but I haven't found anything.

2. I've read on a few websites that the Nazi's decided to eradicate the A. m. mellifera, as they didn't consider it to be productive enough - I suspect that this Nosema epidemic may have influenced that decision / thinking, BUT I haven't been able to get anything solid on this claim either...

3. I've found one reference about Germany re-stocking their bee population after the war with A. m. carnica bees, IF this is true then I think it may be linked to the previous two issues, BUT I have also heard that in Germany there are local regulations for which type of bee you are allowed to keep in each area, surely there would be a map or something that would show this, again I suspect it could be in German, hence the reason why I haven't found it, anyone know of such a map or details of this re-population or present regulations?

*Quote taken from 'Biologists under Hitler' by Ute Deichmann, page 177, which in turn is taken from Frisch himself in 1973 page 116.

 

[For want of a better word]

PM B+ as he is an expert on the carnica field.
I did hear about Jersey and Guernsey ( Channel islands) having all of their colonies of bees exterminated by the occupying forces as they did not want the islanders to have anything sweet in their lives
!But this may have been propagandist warmongering!

Chons da

 

[madasafish]

Ruttner's "Breeding Techniques and Selection for Breeding of the Honeybee" covers this . The English Translation - 1988 - has statistics from 1922 of yields per hive and the increases - in selected apiaries over the decades.


Lots of performance details etc..

It is well worth reading.

(I note the apparent discrepancy between German Beekeeping - organised, factual, scientific - and about 99% of all UK written books on beekeeping breeding - most of which have no statistics and are worth only burning . UK beekeeping appears about 100 years behind the curve)

 

[TooBee...]

Ruttner's books keep being cited in other books and articles I'm reading, I need to get a copy of it, or take the plunge and just buy it! Just used to getting free stuff from the web!

 

[Poly Hive]

It's something you should own.

PH

 

[madasafish]

It's something you should own.

PH

+1

Despite the details, the translation makes it very easy to read.. VERY well written... I will never aspire to do what he did.. but just knowing it puts some of the claims made both here and by the BBKA for "local bees" in their rightful place.

 

[ShinySideUp]

PM B+ as he is an expert on the carnica field.
I did hear about Jersey and Guernsey ( Channel islands) having all of their colonies of bees exterminated by the occupying forces as they did not want the islanders to have anything sweet in their lives
!But this may have been propagandist warmongering!

Chons da

Is the recent invasion of the Channel Islands by the Asian Hornet a neo-nazi plot perhaps?

 

[For want of a better word]

Is the recent invasion of the Channel Islands by the Asian Hornet a neo-nazi plot perhaps?

Indeed not... just another warning sign of impending doom to the planet due to mans incessant need to pollute and thus the causation of global warming and climatic changes...... the march towards the Homocene... and possibly another mass extinction as the planet enters another ice age!

Yeghes da

 

[B+.]

and possibly another mass extinction as the planet enters another ice age!

....ever the optimist!

 

[Hivemaker.]

....ever the optimist!

Already happening...

Our planet is now in the midst of its sixth mass extinction of plants and animals — the sixth wave of extinctions in the past half-billion years. We're currently experiencing the worst spate of species die-offs since the loss of the dinosaurs 65 million years ago. Although extinction is a natural phenomenon, it occurs at a natural “background” rate of about one to five species per year. Scientists estimate we're now losing species at 1,000 to 10,000 times the background rate, with literally dozens going extinct every day. It could be a scary future indeed, with as many as 30 to 50 percent of all species possibly heading toward extinction by mid-century

https://www.biologicaldiversity.org...y/elements_of_biodiversity/extinction_crisis/

 

[TooBee...]

1. Nosema epidemic in Europe during WW2,
2. Plan by Nazi's to destroy the Amm,
3. The re-population of Germany with Amc.

Just in-case we're about to go

 

[MuswellMetro]

Indeed not... just another warning sign of impending doom to the planet due to mans incessant need to pollute and thus the causation of global warming and climatic changes...... the march towards the Homocene... and possibly another mass extinction as the planet enters another ice age!

Yeghes da

This well-respected Scientist already thinks a 300 year ice age is on its way

https://youtu.be/SHGbri7gWWw

 

[madasafish]

This well-respected Scientist already thinks a 300 year ice age is on its way

https://youtu.be/SHGbri7gWWw

I read articles in 1983 forecasting the same thing for 2000 on...( I still have a copy somewhere)

 

[For want of a better word]

Already happening...


https://www.biologicaldiversity.org...y/elements_of_biodiversity/extinction_crisis/

As the WWF ad points out... we are the first species to understand it... and possibly the last.

Chons da

 

[oxnatbees]

+1

Despite the details, the translation makes it very easy to read.. VERY well written... I will never aspire to do what he did.. but just knowing it puts some of the claims made both here and by the BBKA for "local bees" in their rightful place.

Ruttner explains that after a century of experimenting with Carnica imports, German beeks had filled the country with Amm/Carnica crosses which were scarily fierce, and they decided they had to choose one race or the other. They plumped for Carnica, as it gave higher honey yields in their climate. In hindsight, the original local bees would probably have been more resilient against pests like varroa. I don't recall him mentioning a nosema epidemic.

 

[Jimmy]

In hindsight, the original local bees would probably have been more resilient against pests like varroa..

Why?
Do Amm have intrinsically more genetic variation than other subspecies?

 

[Finman]

Why?
Do Amm have intrinsically more genetic variation than other subspecies?

AMM has now smaller living area than many other races. Crossings between races and between strains are impossible to count.

First we haunt pure strains and then variations. Impossible questions to handle.

Nature need crossings and variations. Nature does not want "pure".

 

[Finman]

. In hindsight, the original local bees would probably have been more resilient against pests like varroa. I don't recall him mentioning a nosema epidemic.

Locality does not save bees from varroa or from other diseases. Controversy when you import immune genes from outside, you save bees. So breeding happens.

 

[B+.]

Nature does not want "pure".

When people say "pure", they actually mean "homogeneous". This refers to the degree of similarity within a group. The opposite is "variation" which is the tendency for values to scatter about the mean. So, when millennia pass and a group is confined within an area, they tend to interbreed so much that there is very little, if any, variation. This is how the groups we call races evolved. So, to say that "nature does not want pure" is not true. Nature created it. However, the polyandrous mating practices of the virgin queen allows, or perhaps even encourages, out-breeding to occur unless constrained in some way (e.g. isolation or instrumental insemination).

 

[Beefriendly]

In hindsight, the original local bees would probably have been more resilient against pests like varroa. .

Why on earth would you think that?