Proboscis length?

[TooBee...]

Hi

I thought that the length of a bees tongue (proboscis) no matter what sub-species it was, were all about the same?

However I have read on this website
http://beespoke.info/2014/01/31/carniolan-bee/
that the length of an A M Carnica (same claim is made for Ligustica) proboscis is much longer than I thought it was, reference below:
"It is similar to the Italian bee in that it is a medium sized bee with a long narrow body and limbs and it also has the same long proboscis which enables it to make full use of the red clover – an important forage crop in Europe."

First I didn't realize that 'red' clover was common on the continent, I thought it was a more USA crop, and second, it was my understanding that it's flower was too long for a Honey Bee to collect the Nectar (unless no other pollinators collected the nectar and allowed it to fill to the top, ... which seems unlikely): The only other way I thought the Honey Bee could collect the Nectar from Red Clover was from robbing, but research seems to suggest that it is the Bumble Bee that bites a hole in the side of the flower and then collects the nectar, allowing the Honey Bee to follow afterwards. (Bumble Bees tongues are apparently longer so in theory they can drink from all clovers, and other flowers bees can't).

I did start to try and find the answer myself, but I know that there are people that probably know the answer to this one of the top of their heads, when this member still is Pasting the word ... proboscis

 

[Beefriendly]

Hi

I thought that the length of a bees tongue (proboscis) no matter what sub-species it was, were all about the same?

There is a range of probosci's lengths that is used as part of the characteristics for each sub-species. Carnica is, on average, the longest.

Before nitrogen fertilisers clovers where a main rotational crop, both here and the continent for adding nitrogen back into the soil. Sadly missed.

 

[TooBee...]

Thanks for that.

Do you, or anyone else, know of a website that gives the lengths of bee's probosci's? I'm still not convinced that it would be long enough to collect the nectar in Red Clover - Trifolium pratense L.

I have a few different types of clover in my garden, and I have never seen the bees on the Red Clover, only Bumble Bees, though they both seemed to like the White Clover.

 

[Finman]

.
You can go into red clover field and see yourself, what is happening there.

You see the number or bumbble bees and see some honey bees. You heard better the sound of bees. Mostly you see there nothing.

You may draw off pich of clover tubes and suck them to mouth, if they have some nectar. Often flowers have nothing in them.

Longest tongue does not mean that the bee can suck nectar from flowers.

 

[Finman]

.
I have not heard or seen, that tongue length has been a reason to breed and select the bee strain.

 

[Goran]

Thanks for that.

Do you, or anyone else, know of a website that gives the lengths of bee's probosci's? I'm still not convinced that it would be long enough to collect the nectar in Red Clover - Trifolium pratense L.

I have a few different types of clover in my garden, and I have never seen the bees on the Red Clover, only Bumble Bees, though they both seemed to like the White Clover.

On wiki You have for ligustica and carnies. If I recall right the longest is at caucasian, then carnies and latest ligustica. That is in books from which we studied.
On pic one of our bees on red clover. More likely to be seen later in the season when forage is reduced ( summer). Also is considered that when frequently trimming red clover - the depth of later flower is shorter. I have seen our bees collect from the top and from aside from the holes on flower made by solitary bees/ bumble bees, but not just on red clover..
Long time ago I listened a story ( surely distorted by time and may be fictional): shortly - scientists worked to increase length of bee tongue by selection, and in 20 years they manage to increase for a half of mm.. Then someone got idea: to decrease the length of red clover flower - they succeed in a few years.. If true, I definitely would not like to be in the group which work on bee selection..what a mockery would endure..

 

[victor meldrew]

On wiki You have for ligustica and carnies. If I recall right the longest is at caucasian, then carnies and latest ligustica. That is in books from which we studied.

On pic one of our bees on red clover. More likely to be seen later in the season when forage is reduced ( summer). Also is considered that when frequently trimming red clover - the depth of later flower is shorter. I have seen our bees collect from the top and from aside from the holes on flower made by solitary bees/ bumble bees, but not just on red clover..

Long time ago I listened a story ( surely distorted by time and may be fictional): shortly - scientists worked to increase length of bee tongue by selection, and in 20 years they manage to increase for a half of mm.. Then someone got idea: to decrease the length of red clover flower - they succeed in a few years.. If true, I definitely would not like to be in the group which work on bee selection..what a mockery would endure..

The red clover in the pictures could be a second flush of flowers after having been cut !


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[Goran]

The red clover in the pictures could be a second flush of flowers after having been cut !


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Seems so.
Also I believe due to lack of available forage they make extra effort to reach nectar in the flower.

 

[Curley]

The red clover in the pictures could be a second flush of flowers after having been cut !


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That was my understanding - that bees could access red clover on second growth where presumably the flowers are smaller. I stand to be corrected.

 

[Finman]

That was my understanding - that bees could access red clover on second growth where presumably the flowers are smaller. I stand to be corrected.

The flower bundle in the picture is bloomed over. The photografer has just picked that object and the pic does not prove anything. Not typical at all.

The cluster of flowers is over bloomed and it is making seeds. Why the bundle of flowers is so miserable I do not know and I do not start to bet.

But I know that second blooming of red clover is totally normal after cutting, and it does not give more nectar than first blooming.

I have just now here fine red fields on second blooming. Bees bring lots of pollen from late blooming because no other plants bloom any more. Perhaps some balsam.

Go onto fields and see there the reality there. I have pictures where bees really take nectar from flowers, but from bumbble bees holes.


And what is real problem often in beautifull red clover fields: There is no nectar in flowers that you can find some bubblebees from 6 hectars field. But when fireweed has stopped blooming next week, you may find on same field 5 bumbble bees per square metre.

Yes, draw off the flower tubes from bunddle and you see, does the flower has any nectar. Press the tubes with finger tips.

.

 

[Goran]

The red clover in the pictures could be a second flush of flowers after having been cut !


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

I bumped on one video on youtube - not mine.. Bees in video are carnies.. I won't annoy any more in this thread..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5Hfshvvl1w

 

[masterBK]

I believe the gadget for measuring effective tongue length in a bee is called a glossometer

 

[Popparand]

I believe the gadget for measuring effective tongue length in a bee is called a glossometer

Surely tongue in cheek?

 

[Finman]

I believe the gadget for measuring effective tongue length in a bee is called a glossometer

Look wikipedia. It measures surface reflection.

 

[Beefriendly]

I believe the gadget for measuring effective tongue length in a bee is called a glossometer

Posh name for a ruler.

 

[Ian123]

I believe the gadget for measuring effective tongue length in a bee is called a glossometer

Don’t tell the mrs about that pls

 

[Finman]

Secret is that no one has measured red clover's flower tube.

Tubemeter. You can measure tube like things.

 

[Beefriendly]

Secret is that no one has measured red clover's flower tube.

Tubemeter. You can measure tube like things.

Would seem they have. Apparently tetraploid red clover has a longer corolla tube and more nectar but is still inaccessible to bees as is most red clover.
https://www.apiservices.biz/htm/pollination_handbook/red0000000001ED30ED.html

 

[Finman]

Beefriend's link shows, how long these things have been known and measured.
. I think that after that time red clover has been bred so that it produces green forage continuously. That is why nectar secretion is weak.

During last 50 years red clover as honey plant has not become better.

 

[masterBK]

Look wikipedia. It measures surface reflection.

Finman : That is a gloss meter. I am talking about a glossometer. The extra "o" makes a big difference

The use of a glossometer is mentioned in a document (which gives lots of info about research on red clover pollination) use link below

https://pure.au.dk/ws/files/3693654/djfm71.pdf

On page 15 there is the folllowing

The tongue lengths of honeybee workers from four colonies at the ‘Kvarta’ field, two at the
‘Rajah’ organic field and four colonies at the ’Rajah’ large scale field were measured by a
Glossometer (Henriksen 1957). This instrument indirectly measures the tongue
length by the bees’ ability to reach the sugar food in the instrument by licking