Poly Hive in Bloody Cold Climate

[KiwiLad]

what ventilation do they use in latvia and what does your new langstroth polyhive come with an open crown board,solid perspex and or roof vents etc ( not how you run it but what does it have when new)

Whilst there's no real standardisation here beyond the dimensions of the hive inner box (see below) and frames, I've peered into a few hives and this is what seems to be the norm...

Hives consists of a inner box of wood with approximately half the thickness of a typical LS or Nat box (just to my eye). This sits in an enclosure with some 200mm space between its walls and the inner box, which is filled with varied insulating materials. Most inner boxes appear to be covered by (a) a cloth laying on the frames, and (b) a fat pillow of insulation. The enclosure has a hinged lid. From the outside it's reminiscent of a classic English garden or trough hive. Inner box and frame dimensions seem to be close to Dadant, but are referred to as “Latvian”.

The beekeeper (100+ hives; exporting to Germany; queen breeder) who supplied my Carniolans -- using a single LS poly box from me -- proudly showed me the hive his grandfather started in 1937 and it looked much the same as the rest. So I’m guessing the traditional, smallholding, family farmer model of beekeeping that dominates here means the technology hasn’t changed much. The young chap from the Latvian Beekeeping Assn, who's been very helpful to me, is very keen to see the unmentionable new Aussie system when it arrives next year.

So top ventilation per se doesn’t seem to be a specific issue, as I guess the enclosure + insulation-filled air gap + inner box takes care of overall ventilation

As for my Swienty poly, it has a flexible plastic inner cover (maybe 3mm) with smaller-than-bees holes that sits flush with the underside of the roof (also poly). I'm sure I recently read a comment to the effect that poly hives do not produce condensation so top ventilation is not an issue (but, inevitably, I can’t locate the thread).

 

[B+.]

As for my Swienty poly, it has a flexible plastic inner cover (maybe 3mm) with smaller-than-bees holes that sits flush with the underside of the roof (also poly). I'm sure I recently read a comment to the effect that poly hives do not produce condensation so top ventilation is not an issue (but, inevitably, I can’t locate the thread).

I think I made the comment about the condensation. I used to get a lot of problems in wooden hives with condensation but the polyhives are so much warmer that the frames are completely dry.
I buy a long roll of clear plastic from the builders merchant 2m wide by ~50m long (I think they use it for lining walls but someone can correct me if I'm wrong). I cut this a little bigger than the hive dimensions and use it as a cover. The bees propolise around the edges and seal it down in late summer but it acts as a clear cover so I can quickly lift the lid if need be and see if they're ok. This plastic sheet gets used for everything including covering the back seats in my car as it inevitably gets used for all sorts of bee equipment.
I have a few from Swienty but the majority are from Paradise Honey (http://paradisehoney.net/en/beebox-beehives/)

 

[MuswellMetro]

Whilst there's no real standardisation here beyond the dimensions of the hive inner box (see below) and frames, I've peered into a few hives and this is what seems to be the norm...

Hives consists of a inner box of wood with approximately half the thickness of a typical LS or Nat box (just to my eye). This sits in an enclosure with some 200mm space between its walls and the inner box, which is filled with varied insulating materials. Most inner boxes appear to be covered by (a) a cloth laying on the frames, and (b) a fat pillow of insulation. The enclosure has a hinged lid. From the outside it's reminiscent of a classic English garden or trough hive. Inner box and frame dimensions seem to be close to Dadant, but are referred to as “Latvian”.

The beekeeper (100+ hives; exporting to Germany; queen breeder) who supplied my Carniolans -- using a single LS poly box from me -- proudly showed me the hive his grandfather started in 1937 and it looked much the same as the rest. So I’m guessing the traditional, smallholding, family farmer model of beekeeping that dominates here means the technology hasn’t changed much. The young chap from the Latvian Beekeeping Assn, who's been very helpful to me, is very keen to see the unmentionable new Aussie system when it arrives next year.

So top ventilation per se doesn’t seem to be a specific issue, as I guess the enclosure + insulation-filled air gap + inner box takes care of overall ventilation

As for my Swienty poly, it has a flexible plastic inner cover (maybe 3mm) with smaller-than-bees holes that sits flush with the underside of the roof (also poly). I'm sure I recently read a comment to the effect that poly hives do not produce condensation so top ventilation is not an issue (but, inevitably, I can’t locate the thread).

Thanks, very similar to Czech republic hives and that have seen and aslo similar to the english original square WBC and the irish CDB Hives which relied on a double skin hive and a quilt or cushion above the brood box, My poly hives are 14x12 and like your have no top ventilation but i have replaced the perspex crown board with a wooden ply board with bee space for ease of use


I learnt beekeeping in the 1950/60s as a small child with my grandfather on his a square pre war WBCs /cottger hives on brood and a half, They had a 3/4" solid wood crown board and if a contact feeder was used it went under the crown board in an empty super

in winter it was insulated between the outer and inner skin with packed straw and a thick straw filled quilt in a super

i returned to beekeeping in 2000 and kept bees the top ventilated way with high losses, i have reverted to top insulation and solid crown boards as per my 1950/60 experience but on 14x12s with bottom ventilation, small entrance mouse guards and an empty super under the floor

Anecdotally i have virtually no winter losses (except DLQ) over the last five years (my 15 hives plus 10 training hives that I manage and 15-20 hives a friend who uses the same methods) However they do seem to swarm earlier perhaps as they have lots of stores in March/April

The local big wig NDB and a Master Beekeeper both told me the wooden board would warp in the poly and my top insulated wooden hives, that the bees would not draw out the outer combs, i would get less honey as they would use up honey cooling the hive, that they would abscond , would not cluster and run out of stores as too active in winter, become weak, get more nosema and chalk brood due to high humidity,~~~they do not .

The Masterbeekeper came in June ,,how many of your hives did you loose##i said zero,

 

[Finman]

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I have used polyboxes since year 1987 (Finland).
I have self made solid floors and self made inner covers. Inner cover has 7 cm high frame, and the board is made from 9 mm thick wood slices (free material). Insulation material is soft plastic mattress (recycled).
I keep my wooden floors and inner covers, because they are was to keep clean with propane flame.

Wintering box needs 1.5 cm upper entrance in front wall that moist air comes out.

I prefer douple brood in wintering, but if colony is not that big, I reduce it to one box. On average hives need 20 kg sugar in winter.

Paradise honey is 70 km from me and new boxes are from there.
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Winter in my area is often -20C and sometimes -30C. Woodpeckers are bigger problem than frost.

.

 

[Finman]

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Polyboxes are very handy in migrative beekeeping.

 

[B+.]

Woodpeckers are bigger problem than frost.

Same here Finman! Do you have a solution other than wrapping the hives with 13mm mesh (or shooting the woodpeckers)?

 

[Finman]

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I think that mesh is best solution.

 

[user 6228]

Whilst there's no real standardisation here beyond the dimensions of the hive inner box (see below) and frames, I've peered into a few hives and this is what seems to be the norm...

Hives consists of a inner box of wood with approximately half the thickness of a typical LS or Nat box (just to my eye). This sits in an enclosure with some 200mm space between its walls and the inner box, which is filled with varied insulating materials. Most inner boxes appear to be covered by (a) a cloth laying on the frames, and (b) a fat pillow of insulation. The enclosure has a hinged lid. From the outside it's reminiscent of a classic English garden or trough hive. Inner box and frame dimensions seem to be close to Dadant, but are referred to as “Latvian”.

The beekeeper (100+ hives; exporting to Germany; queen breeder) who supplied my Carniolans -- using a single LS poly box from me -- proudly showed me the hive his grandfather started in 1937 and it looked much the same as the rest. So I’m guessing the traditional, smallholding, family farmer model of beekeeping that dominates here means the technology hasn’t changed much. The young chap from the Latvian Beekeeping Assn, who's been very helpful to me, is very keen to see the unmentionable new Aussie system when it arrives next year.

So top ventilation per se doesn’t seem to be a specific issue, as I guess the enclosure + insulation-filled air gap + inner box takes care of overall ventilation

As for my Swienty poly, it has a flexible plastic inner cover (maybe 3mm) with smaller-than-bees holes that sits flush with the underside of the roof (also poly). I'm sure I recently read a comment to the effect that poly hives do not produce condensation so top ventilation is not an issue (but, inevitably, I can’t locate the thread).

We used to have lots of double walled hives in this country but then we had an outbreak of mosquitos

 

[itma]

We used to have lots of double walled hives in this country but then we had an outbreak of mosquitos

I'm not sure many would immediately read that comment as being a reference to wartime priority use of timber for making military aircraft ...

 

[user 6228]

I'm not sure many would immediately read that comment as being a reference to wartime priority use of timber for making military aircraft ...

Well spotted
The plan for putting the wooden wonder into production and questions in the house about the timber shortage are just 2 months before the BBC puts out a broadcast pushing the national hive and the move away from the WBC and insulation.
coincidence?

 

[Hivemaker.]

Well spotted
The plan for putting the wooden wonder into production and questions in the house about the timber shortage are just 2 months before the BBC puts out a broadcast pushing the national hive and the move away from the WBC and insulation.
coincidence?

Were beehives using up too much Ecuadorean balsawood and Canadian birch.

 

[user 6228]

Were beehives using up too much Ecuadorean balsawood and Canadian birch.

yes that made the skin.... but it was also the wood working machinery, manpower and vitally the space on the ships bringing it here. Honey was essential war work but there was a shortage of equipment, so the bees had to do more with less. The mossie could be built utilising a skilled work force and machinery not previously employed in making high performance aircraft.

 

[KiwiLad]

I think I made the comment about the condensation. I used to get a lot of problems in wooden hives with condensation but the polyhives are so much warmer that the frames are completely dry.

I have a few from Swienty but the majority are from Paradise Honey.

Thanks for clarifying that. Disregarding the question of top ventilation, do you use a top entrance (as does Finman) for other reasons -- easier access to honey supers by foragers at peak flow, Winter cleansing flights when the bottom entrance may be below snow level, etc?

As this is my first (a) wintering in a bloody cold climate, and (b) use of poly hives, I've got no real idea of what to expect, so I've been looking at all the various suggestions for coping with Winter. Whilst we got very little snow here last season, and only a couple of well below freezing cold snaps, my first Winter (2010-11) was a continuous 1m+ of snow from late Oct to mid-Mar and -20|25C for extended periods. Makes a Kiwi nervous!

As the only local Paradise supplier carries only Dadant, I've tried to get a price from the manufacturer, but with no answer. Perhaps small volume sales are of no interest to them.

 

[Finman]

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Britain should be the last place, where you search " alternatives" to overwinter hives. You surely have best knowledge in Latvia . In polyhives are is easier for their good insulation. And the more important is good spring build up.

 

[B+.]

Thanks for clarifying that. Disregarding the question of top ventilation, do you use a top entrance (as does Finman) for other reasons -- easier access to honey supers by foragers at peak flow, Winter cleansing flights when the bottom entrance may be below snow level, etc?

As the only local Paradise supplier carries only Dadant, I've tried to get a price from the manufacturer, but with no answer. Perhaps small volume sales are of no interest to them.

I don't but I can see it makes a lot of sense. I considered the Paradise Honey queen trap system for this purpose: by closing off the original entrance and having a new one above the brood, the fresh nectar doesn't go into the brood area so the queen has plenty of space to lay. My concern was that they would put the pollen in the supers and I'd have a lot of blow-outs during extraction.
I don't think an upper entrance is necessary or desirable in the winter because I want to keep the hive warm. I try to over winter strong colonies in double Langstoth deeps but allow them to fill the top box with winter stores towards the end of the season. The bees move up onto the stoes as it gets colder and leave empty combs behind. They generally have 4+ frames of food left in the spring so I don't have to rush around feeding fondant the way people with Nationals seem to do. We don't get that much snow here. In fact, the last couple of "winters" have been completely snow-free. I'm about as far inland as its possible to get in England though.
I bought my Paradise Honey Langstroths quite a long time ago when Paradise Honey first started selling in the UK. I bought a pallet of brood boxes direct from Finland. He now has distributors who take care of small volume sales

 

[B+.]

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You surely have best knowledge in Latvia . In polyhives are is easier for their good insulation. And the more important is good spring build up.

I agree with Finman. Your conditions will be different to the UK. We have the gulf stream that keeps our climate relatively warm, even in winter.
You might find Michael Palmers videos useful (Vermont, USA)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnIMF1Isr-8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gi6blu8x8lk
He uses wooden boxes though so its a little different. Note his use of roofing felt for solar gain to warm the hives.
If you have snow like this, you will need an upper entrance so they can fly in short warm spells (Michael makes this point very clearly)

 

[Finman]

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If you have mesh floor, then no upper entrance, but if you have solid floor, then it is good. That is not believing issue.

 

[Finman]

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In Finland and in Latvia most of the winter is same kind as in Britain. That British guys does not understand that but they are splended advisors. They explain always that they have so special winter.

In south Finland snow is on ground from December to beginning of April. Four months are like in Britain. December is often snow free.

Hives over winter better without snow than inside snow. Snow is often wet and so do hives.

 

[Finman]

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What is truth in wintering. ... Beekeepers are mad to debate about ventilation, entrances, floors, inner covers and what ever and ready to die for their own solution. As we see, they all work. And if not work, hive will die during 8 months winter.

To many mesh floor is modern, even if it has been used 30 years.

But hive furniture does not bring honey. It is good pastures.

 

[KiwiLad]

Okay... Lots to think about. I've only this week started looking at UK resources, prior to that I was using the US BeeSource forum and its various links -- especially Michael Bush -- for information. Vermont looks like a good match for me.

Yes, the Swienty poly has a mesh floor. I had thought that without a top entrance I will need to at least provide an angled exterior board to protect against snow build-up (and do a lot of shovelling!).

I'm most nervous about this year, partly because it's my first and partly because I've started my hive late in the season and will need to feed (also a novelty for me). I hope next year to have them head into Winter with a full honey super entirely from natural sources.

I'm currently bulding up a second brood box. Local advice is to reduce to one for Winter, which has left me a little nonplussed about what to do with its contects once it's empty of bees. However, my Latvia Beekeepers Assn friend will visit in Sep and answer my questions.