Karl von Frisch, Nosema, Nazi & Carnica

[Finman]

. So, when millennia pass and a group is confined within an area, they tend to interbreed so much that there is very little, if any, variation. This is how the groups we call races evolved. So, to say that "nature does not want pure" is not true. ).

Nature wants variation. That is why sexual reproduction exists even in bacteria.

But what ever....vain to invent a wheel on this thing.

 

[B+.]

Nature wants variation. That is why sexual reproduction exists even in bacteria.

Indeed. Sexual reproduction is natures way of making new genetic combinations. Some of these combinations are beneficial and some are not. However, when the group is confined by boundaries (artificial or natural) for long enough no new genetic material can be introduced. This period of stability allows any genetic advantage available to some members to work its way throughout the population.
It would be difficult to maintain this sort of stability in the modern world (even legal barriers are insufficient as the arrival of Vespa velutina in the UK demonstrates).

 

[masterBK]

New genetic material can also and does enter the genome via mutation resulting in phenotypic variation ( more obvious in drones as being haploid they will express those new gene variants and combinations). Isolation from other breeding populations reduces gene flow and selection pressure on new gene combinations results in differences between them.

 

[B+.]

New genetic material can also and does enter the genome via mutation resulting in phenotypic variation ( more obvious in drones as being haploid they will express those new gene variants and combinations). Isolation from other breeding populations reduces gene flow and selection pressure on new gene combinations results in differences between them.

Absolutely right. Mutation does occur and its effect can, as I said earlier, be either positive or negative. It can take a long time for effects to be spread throughout the whole population (depending on how big the population is and how beneficial the change). Selection pressure, as well as selection intensity (the number of generations per year) are important aspects of any breeding programme.

 

[Stiffy]

It's something you should own.

PH

Been trying to buy a copy for ages, anyone know where it can be purchased from?
S

 

[Beefriendly]

Absolutely right. Mutation does occur and its effect can, as I said earlier, be either positive or negative. It can take a long time for effects to be spread throughout the whole population (depending on how big the population is and how beneficial the change). Selection pressure, as well as selection intensity (the number of generations per year) are important aspects of any breeding programme.

Not forgetting about the extra variance brought about by crossover at meiosis. Bees have an ultra high degree of crossover leading to a large genetic variance even within close populations.

 

[Beefriendly]

Been trying to buy a copy for ages, anyone know where it can be purchased from?
S

BIBBA supposedly stock it....
https://bibba.com/breeding-techniques-and-selection-for-breeding-of-the-honeybee/

But BIBBA being BIBBA don't take it for granted.

 

[Finman]

Not forgetting about the extra variance brought about by crossover at meiosis. Bees have an ultra high degree of crossover leading to a large genetic variance even within close populations.

Good information to back yard beekeepers.

But to me best way to get new gene combinations is to buy them.

 

[Beefriendly]

But to me best way to get new gene combinations is to buy them.

Best way to get decent queens is to buy them...new gene combinations thrown in for free....
Reward the bee breeders for their work.

 

[Finman]

.
I do not wait mutations.
.

 

[oxnatbees]

Why?
Do Amm have intrinsically more genetic variation than other subspecies?

(1) If you are talking about the original bee stock across the whole of Germany, versus imported bees which are then intensively bred from, yes.

(2) There is experimental evidence that locally adapted bees are more resilient vs pests. Note this does not mean a particular race: if Carnica have been in an area not too different to their home for a few generations, they can adapt to it. It's a matter of colony resilience being higher if you minimise stressors, like not wasting energy breeding when there's no forage.

(3) I'm not particularly pro-Amm, but I do think people here underrate local hybrids. I see a lot of survivor colonies. Wing morphometry indicates a range of mixed-race origins, so mixing genes seems to help toughness, and obviously avoids inbreeding.

 

[Beefriendly]

(1) If you are talking about the original bee stock across the whole of Germany, versus imported bees which are then intensively bred from, yes..

What benefit does does all this genetic variety play if you are a beekeeper wanting gentle fecund and honey gathering bees??

 

[Finman]

.
Odd thinking

- which has more variation, selected or non selected group?

- which survives better, locally adapted or not locally adapted?

This all is playing with words.

To rear Queens from 6 basic hives do not have much sense if you think that you are a bee breeder. When you take the best from your apiary, it is a hybrid.

- Genetic variation in all Germany has no meaning in the place where you live with your "local " bees.
.
.

 

[For want of a better word]

What benefit does does all this genetic variety play if you are a beekeeper wanting gentle fecund and honey gathering bees??

I expect the answer lies somewhere in one of the many books on genetics...
suggest you try reading some!

Yeghes da

 

[Finman]

I expect the answer lies somewhere in one of the many books on genetics...
suggest you try reading some!

Yeghes da

How the answer can be in genetic books?

The right answer is in every case AMM.

 

[B+.]

I expect the answer lies somewhere in one of the many books on genetics...
suggest you try reading some!

Yeghes da

Actually, the two are opposites. You can either have "wild" type that has all the variation you could ask for, or, you can select for a trait (any trait, it doesn't matter which, involves selecting those that possess it and deselecting those that don't) which narrows the gene pool.
There is a very good argument that too much selection can narrow the pool so much that it becomes nonviable. This is why breeders have to be very careful and always have an eye to the future.

 

[For want of a better word]

Actually, the two are opposites. You can either have "wild" type that has all the variation you could ask for, or, you can select for a trait (any trait, it doesn't matter which, involves selecting those that possess it and deselecting those that don't) which narrows the gene pool.
There is a very good argument that too much selection can narrow the pool so much that it becomes nonviable. This is why breeders have to be very careful and always have an eye to the future.

Attended a very good lecture on bee genetics in relation to the number of sex alleles, and the problems of not enough variability ( or allele numbers) within a closed... or selected for population.

How do you access the sex allele numbers?

Presume there are lab facilities to look at the chromosomes??

( I hope this is a sensible question and (it is NOT baiting as in the B F trilling)... attempting to get some sensible debate going!)

Yeghes da

 

[B+.]

How do you access the sex allele numbers?

Presume there are lab facilities to look at the chromosomes??

There are planning tools within BeeBreed that allow you to do "What if" scenarios.
I can, for example, ask it to recommend potential mates for a particular queen and ranking the suggestions in order of breeding value, inbreeding (queen and worker) etc. It might return a list of 30/40 potentials and I can choose the one I want. I might choose the nearest if that is important to me or I might choose a particular breeder that I know and trust if I've worked with them before.
For general breeding, I will aim to keep the inbreeding down as low as possible (<1%) but if I am doing sdi work for VSH, I might be prepared to have a lot more inbreeding, knowing that I will outbreed in the next generation.