Is there anyway of requeening with the old queen still there!

[Snootycat]

I am hopeless at finding the queen and have a couple of hives of VERY stroppy bees. Yes, I know I should find the queen but boy do they get angry!

I need to requeen, yet in order to do that I need to find the queen so its a vicious circle.
Does anyone know of anyway I could requeen using a nice gentle queen while the old queen is still in there?
I thought I would ask, it would be the answer to my prayers.
Thanks
Pam

 

[Poly Hive]

Sadly in a word no.

However you need to load the odds for finding the queen in your favour.

Take the brood box for a walk some 50 yds from the usual stand.

Remove three combs (assuming nat) to leave 8. Pair them into four, or if not that much brood, pair into three pairs. Leave alone for at least twenty minutes, and the queen will take refuge from the light in between one of the pairs.

By moving them you lose the flying bees, by pairing them you put her to a known point.

After killing her, you can then with some confidence introduce a new one.

Good luck

PH

 

[mbc]

Supercedure requeening can be achieved by popping a protected queen cell on the periphery of the brood nest but tghere's no guaranty it will work and if it does the likelyhood will be that some of the nasty queens drones may have got lucky and passed on their genetics.
IMO PH's advice was very good.

 

[Snootycat]

Ok, at least it sounds possible to find her, I am stung to blazes.

Thanks,
I may try it tomorrow it I can

Pam

 

[Snootycat]

Hang on, I dont have a big enough garden I can take it about 50 ft but not 50 yards..

 

[enrico]

I may be about to teach you to suck eggs but....
Make sure your smoker is well lit, smoke in the entrance heavily and leave for one minute. Lift crown board slightly and smoke heavily again, leave for one minute, now inspect but smoke each frame liberally before gently removing it. Do not smoke frames out of hive.
You need to let the smoke do its job and make the bees start feeding before you disturb them. It will help quell a stroppy hive. Oh! And buy a bomb proof suit, it will give you so much more confidence. If you know your not going to get stung you will become boss again!
E

 

[enrico]

50 feet will do.

 

[REDWOOD]

I may be about to teach you to suck eggs but....
Make sure your smoker is well lit, smoke in the entrance heavily and leave for one minute. Lift crown board slightly and smoke heavily again, leave for one minute, now inspect but smoke each frame liberally before gently removing it. Do not smoke frames out of hive.
You need to let the smoke do its job and make the bees start feeding before you disturb them. It will help quell a stroppy hive. Oh! And buy a bomb proof suit, it will give you so much more confidence. If you know your not going to get stung you will become boss again!
E

and do this on a fine warm day when the workers are out foraging

 

[Swarm]

Agreed. It's not that hot at the moment, wear something substantial with long sleeves under your suit. I think everyone would admit that a defensive colony is intimidating.

Good luck!! and hope you succeed.

 

[BBG]

PH - Nicely explained - IMHO

 

[MuswellMetro]

and do this on a fine warm day when the workers are out foraging

place a super with some comb in it on the stand, while the brood box is away 50ft, otherwise you get a crowd of p**ss*d off bees looking for their hive....ie upto 1/3 of the workers

then swap the hive with the super, the forages then leave the super and return to their hive

 

[Finman]

.
Bye a laying queen from professional beekeeper. Imported queens are a good alternative to nasty madam.

Then make a nuc over the main hive with douple screen. Let the new queen lay one weeks and then abort that eveil madam. The nuc has got the same odor and changing is easy.

Propably you do not get queens now from UK for weathers. But is you get that is OK.

**********

But if you get a swarm from outside, you perhaps get easier queen from there.

 

[Madge]

Do you already have a queen to replace the old one? Or do you know where you're going to find one? In the meantime, as Enrico suggested, the way you work with the bees may anger or calm them (but don't think it's your fault if they're still angry).

1. Unlike Enrico's suggestion, I wouldn't be so liberal with the smoke - too much smoke can get them angry. Also, somebody on another forum suggested to smoke the hive from the top so that the bees move down, away from you. That makes sense to me. Rather than puffing smoke through the entrance, I now open the roof and give a gentle puff of smoke through the open food hole, then I slightly open the crown board, and another puff of smoke, and finally I remove the crown board and give another gentle puff across the frames. After that I only puff smoke occasionally.

2. Bees notice fast movements because they see in 'slow motion'. Jurgen Tautz in 'The Buzz of the Bees' said, 'Sudden hand movements, like those that fearful people make when fending off bees and wasps, offer the most easily recognizable goals for attack.' Slow down your movements. Advice I read somewhere is to imagine yourself working under water - that slow and calm.

I hope their temper improves.

 

[Snootycat]

You have all been really helpful. I have a problem with my smoker, It keeps going out! I was the person who started a thread on how to keep a smoker alight and got loads of replies, so its a common problem. I am beggining to wonder if I need to get a new one. I was at a meeting yesterday where they were saying we should be doing weekly inspections now and I did point out that it was cold, but was told we should do them regardless. Hence............

 

[drstitson]

even 10ft fine for the hive move - as advised just leave a new box on the original location for the foragers to enter.

re smoker - add a perforated insert - find a suitable sized tin can and drill lots of holes in it like a brazier. insert that into the smoker.

how do you light your smoker? - get a gas blowtorch, rather than relying on matches/lighters.

 

[enrico]

Just to clarify for mellifera I usually smoke as little as possible but sometimes stroppy hives need a bit of bullying! If that fails next time spray all the frames with 1:1 sugar solution. If they don't like bullying they may like the opposite! Once again, after spraying leave them for a minute to realise that licking is better fun than stinging!
Let us know how you got on, but practise on that smoker.
E

 

[mbc]

Lots of smoke doesnt help with finding queens, unless of course you're driving bees through an excluder with smoke so as to leave the queen behind and hence easy to see.

 

[itma]

The major point about using smoke is to give it time to work its (indirectly pacifying) magic on the bees.
After you "let them know that something is going to happen" with some smoke - leave them alone for a few whole minutes.
There's a lot of patience involved with bees.
This is one occasion to practice it.

PH's suggestions are excellent ways of improving your chances of finding the veil queen.

Don't forget that you'd additionally be doing all your neighbouring beeks a favour by culling the drones in her hive. Those drones have her genes, only. Not good for them to go out looking for virgin queens...

 

[MuswellMetro]

Talked to Uncle Alf today, who kept bees with my Grandfather from the late 1940s to the 90's, , he said use a wheel barrow at night....ok i thought it funny so asked more


at night seal up and strap up the hive to a wheel barrow then place the hive back (still on the Nasty wheel barrow in it normal position)

later that night open the entrance leave it for a week untouched on the barrow ( bee indent to the site and barrow)


on the 7th day prepare another wheel barrow hive ( Good Wheel barrow) and put in a 3 mile q+ nuc and foundation and wheel it next to the Nasty wheel barrow ( New hive thinks this is it home)u

on the 7th night, wheel the first nasty wheel barrow 6ft to the right and good wheel barrow on to the nasty site , nasty foragers (1/3 of hive say) enter the new hive

on the 15th night wheel the nasty wheel barrow 6ft to the left of the good wheel barrow (this weeks nasty foragers indented to new RHS now enter the new hive)

on the 21stnight nasty 6ft to right ( as 7th)(this weeks nasty foragers indented to new LHS now enter the new hive)

on the 28th Nasty 6ft to the left (as 15th

repeat every 7 days until only the queen and very few bees remain in the nasty then petrol the few remaining bees...

remove the wheel barrow from the new hive

no large lost of honey production, no need to open the nasty hive as it is loosing bees and will not swarm

but remember this was said in the pub by a 89 year old man after a few beers and I have never done it




pu

 

[REDWOOD]

You have all been really helpful. I have a problem with my smoker, It keeps going out! I was the person who started a thread on how to keep a smoker alight and got loads of replies, so its a common problem. I am beggining to wonder if I need to get a new one. I was at a meeting yesterday where they were saying we should be doing weekly inspections now and I did point out that it was cold, but was told we should do them regardless. Hence............

There is no smoke without fire, make sure you get the news paper blazing before adding your fuel and then pump the bellows like mad until the flames are roaring away, close the lid and a puff or two every minute to keep it going. Store your fuel in a dry warm place will help