Insulation in hives

[Finman]

Does he not mean that he doesn't bother with those small colonies that are badly affected by mites? Or have I misunderstood

I wrote that I have small nucs which I care with terrarium heaters over the winter. Then it started a huge poking.

My purpose was tell that even others may use terrarium heaters in special cases.

What I need to save in those nucs are good quality queens. I have done this many times, and I do not need any help in this issue, but neither that eternal rubbish.

Insulating things are very simple. Just buy a poly box and put onto it a proper inner cover.

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[pingping]

I have used a hive heater too Finman. Low watt light bulb in a tin. Innovative beekeeping. I completely agree.

The original thread for discussion was related to the qualities of a natural tree home and replicating the natural environment of the bee in artificial beekeeping.

"He then established the coefficient of the heat loss through an average thickness of a tree if there is such a thing exists and calculated that as bees did not cluster until the temperature dipped to 10 degrees C that it was highly likely that they could survive through the winter without clustering. It also seems that the temperatures maintained within such a colony was not conducive to varroa propagation. He introduced tables of heat loss for various types of wood and polystyrene and none were even close to a tree."

Understanding the habitat of the bee has EVERYTHING to do with the future of beekeeping. This thread is not entirely about insulation.

For the record, and as a one time research botanist, the internal temperatures of tree trunks in all climates follow the ambient temperature very closely and quite rapidly. UPTO 34.5 degC and no higher (the plant opens its stomata full bore to cool the tree). Does that figure sound familiar to any beekeeper? In the opposite direction, tree trunk temps. drop to within a few 10ths of a degree above freezing, and NEVER any lower. This is critical knowledge: given a good site with a well located and fair sized entrance hole, bees in their natural habitat NEVER experience sub-zero temperatures. Because they are not always in the perfect site, they can tolerate them, but in their optimal habitat, they do not. Can not.

I build my own hives and I start with the natural bee. To insulate or not is a non-question the 21st century.

 

[Amari]

fahrts always linger

.......'specially farts in a colander......

 

[Itchy]

Pingping, very interesting post. Thank you.

 

[BeeJayBee]

... Understanding the habitat of the bee has EVERYTHING to do with the future of beekeeping. This thread is not entirely about insulation.

For the record, and as a one time research botanist, the internal temperatures of tree trunks in all climates follow the ambient temperature very closely and quite rapidly. UPTO 34.5 degC and no higher (the plant opens its stomata full bore to cool the tree). Does that figure sound familiar to any beekeeper? In the opposite direction, tree trunk temps. drop to within a few 10ths of a degree above freezing, and NEVER any lower. This is critical knowledge: given a good site with a well located and fair sized entrance hole, bees in their natural habitat NEVER experience sub-zero temperatures. Because they are not always in the perfect site, they can tolerate them, but in their optimal habitat, they do not. Can not.

I build my own hives and I start with the natural bee. To insulate or not is a non-question the 21st century.

So I'd guess you're not a fan of matchsticks?

Interesting figures, by the way, and welcome - please stay, your input could prove very useful.

 

[Finman]

I have used a hive heater too Finman. Low watt light bulb in a tin. Innovative beekeeping. I completely agree.

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Innovative yes. I saw bulb heating 53 years ago. IT took 40 years to me that I tried it first time.
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[Hivemaker.]

I saw bulb heating 53 years ago.
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Did you learn this from the very clever Russian beekeepers?

 

[Finman]

Did you learn this from the very clever Russian beekeepers?

IT was Soviet Union then

Modern Russian log hive

 

[Hivemaker.]

IT was Soviet Union then

So they were not Russians then....they were Soviet Unionists.

Modern Finnish log hive...

 

[Finman]

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Siberian beekeeping

http://bee-home.ru/uchebnik-pchelovoda/razvitiye-pchelovodstva-v-sssr.html

[img

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]http://bee-home.ru/uchebnik-pchelovoda/images/borti-raspolozhennyye-v-lesu.jpg[/img]

 

[pingping]

So I'd guess you're not a fan of matchsticks?

When I first started making insulated hives I used a trad bottom entrance. All the research going way back says that if a hive is well insulated the problems are condensation and an 8hr temperature time lag between the outside temperature effecting the temperature inside the hive. So, in winter when it is warm enough to fly (8-13 deg C) the ambient temperature in the hive rises too slowly to let the bees know it was warm outside and they miss the chance at excretia flights. In other words, insulated hives with a bottom entrance suffer with nosema and dysentery because they cant tell quick enough when is a good time to take excreta flights in the winter. That is exactly what happened to mine. In a natural tree colony, the rising tree temperature tells them.

So I have top entrances. No matches. A paper I read that studied this for years concluded that for a well insulated trad thin walled hive, you need a 1" hole drilled towards the top of the top brood body to let em out and to create a slight air flow. Or matchsticks if you are part insulated.

Jings, I do go on. Sorry

 

[Cussword]

This obsession with "insulation" should surely now have its own separate heading rather than be in with beekeeping in general. The topic generates so much heated debate!

No offence intended but, if you have no interest in the topic, don't open the thread.

Simples.

 

[Erichalfbee]

All the research going way back says that if a hive is well insulated the problems are condensation and an 8hr temperature time lag between the outside temperature effecting the temperature inside the hive. So, in winter when it is warm enough to fly (8-13 deg C) the ambient temperature in the hive rises too slowly to let the bees know it was warm outside and they miss the chance at excretia flights. In other words, insulated hives with a bottom entrance suffer with nosema and dysentery because they cant tell quick enough when is a good time to take excreta flights in the winter.

Jings, I do go on. Sorry

Where exactly does the condensation occur?

I keep my bees in insulated hives and I don't recognise your scenario at all

 

[pingping]

Erichalfbee re.

Where exactly does the condensation occur?

I keep my bees in insulated hives and I don't recognise your scenario at all.


The research trials refer to winterized trad wooden hives, not polyhives, or hives designed with insulation in mind.

Otherwise; moldy outer frames; wet inner, lower walls and corners; moisture at entrances. In multi-brood body overwintering, wet crown boards. If you are not seeing it, you are not seeing it, but moisture from a warm, respiring organism in a sealed box condensates against a colder surface. It just does, unless you mitigate for it.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Erichalfbee re.

Where exactly does the condensation occur?

I keep my bees in insulated hives and I don't recognise your scenario at all.


The research trials refer to winterized trad wooden hives, not polyhives, or hives designed with insulation in mind.

Otherwise; moldy outer frames; wet inner, lower walls and corners; moisture at entrances. In multi-brood body overwintering, wet crown boards. If you are not seeing it, you are not seeing it, but moisture from a warm, respiring organism in a sealed box condensates against a colder surface. It just does, unless you mitigate for it.

Ah....my boxes are not sealed. That must be it.
Sorry I thought you were talking about insulated wooden hives
I do sometimes see a little mould on nadired super frames when I take them off in the Spring but that's hardly surprising. There are no bees on them.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The research trials refer to winterized trad wooden hives, not polyhives, or hives designed with insulation in mind.

Otherwise; moldy outer frames; wet inner, lower walls and corners; moisture at entrances. In multi-brood body overwintering, wet crown boards. If you are not seeing it, you are not seeing it, but moisture from a warm, respiring organism in a sealed box condensates against a colder surface. It just does, unless you mitigate for it.

Don't recognise any of that in any of my wooden hives

 

[pingping]

@ jenkinsbrynmair

Do you have open bottom boards? Condensation happens because of physics, not because of your skills or not as a beekeeper. Insulation is about updating hive designs that haven't changed since before the steam engine. It ain't personal. The perfect hive is a living tree. Everything else is a compromise, I guess, for bees and keeper.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

That's a matter of opinion - all my hives have open mesh floors BTW

 

[Finman]

Otherwise; moldy outer frames; wet inner, lower walls and corners; moisture at entrances. In multi-brood body overwintering, wet crown boards. If you are not seeing it, you are not seeing it, but moisture from a warm, respiring organism in a sealed box condensates against a colder surface. It just does, unless you mitigate for it.

- First, you should reduce the wintering room before feeding as small as bees can go inside.

- You hive's interrior is too large and cold. Dewpoint is inside the hive.

- take off dark combs and pollen combs next to wall. Give instead white combs or foundations.

- if you have solid floor, make an upper entrance to front Wall 1:2 distance. 15 mm wide.

- upper cover must have best insulation, because condensation happens onto coldest surfaces.

- do or ventilate so much that hive looses its heat.
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[Finman]

The perfect hive is a living tree. Everything else is a compromise, I guess, for bees and keeper.

Perfect nonsense. In Finnish: hölynpölyä

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