Influence of different genotypes in the hive?

[Nakedapiarist]

I'm well aware that a hive of bees contains workers from many different drones but we tend to look at the colony as a single entity.

I'm wondering how traits from different drone influence the hives behaviour as a whole.

Supposing we had a single gene for bad temper ( if only it were that simple! ) and one out of the ten drones our queen mated with carried that gene. That means ten percent of our workers are bad tempered, but how does that manifest across the colony - would we have a hive where one in ten bees has a short temper, would that 10% set the rest of them off as well, or would the calmer majority make the others relax?

 

[mjt68]

I'm well aware that a hive of bees contains workers from many different drones but we tend to look at the colony as a single entity.

I'm wondering how traits from different drone influence the hives behaviour as a whole.

Supposing we had a single gene for bad temper ( if only it were that simple! ) and one out of the ten drones our queen mated with carried that gene. That means ten percent of our workers are bad tempered, but how does that manifest across the colony - would we have a hive where one in ten bees has a short temper, would that 10% set the rest of them off as well, or would the calmer majority make the others relax?

The sperm from different drones isn't used randomly, more (I think) a case of last in, first out. It wouldn't be one in ten in the hive, more like 1/10th of the queen laying lifespan.

Queen pheromones are important too so the queen's father matters.

 

[Thymallus]

I beg to differ. The phenotypes of the bees in a hive are representative of all the drones a queen has mated with and in nearly equal proportions. Which is random usage of all the sperm, not selective.
What is selective are the Royal lineages where only a small subset of all the possible phenotype of the bees are used to generate queens under the emergency queen rearing response. Suggesting that some phenotypes (Royal lines) dominate at the expense of other.
Here's a couple of references to look at, in case you think I'm talking horse ship.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1224278/
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/7610474_Rare_royal_families_in_honeybees_Apis_mellifera

 

[Thymallus]

I'm well aware that a hive of bees contains workers from many different drones but we tend to look at the colony as a single entity.

I'm wondering how traits from different drone influence the hives behaviour as a whole.

Supposing we had a single gene for bad temper ( if only it were that simple! ) and one out of the ten drones our queen mated with carried that gene. That means ten percent of our workers are bad tempered, but how does that manifest across the colony - would we have a hive where one in ten bees has a short temper, would that 10% set the rest of them off as well, or would the calmer majority make the others relax?

It's just not that simple it's a very complex equation of genetics and queen pheromone influence on the bees within a colony. Not fully understood, but certainly polygenic in nature.
It is often described how a hive of really bad tempered bees calms down within hours of a new queen being introduced (one with calm gentle offspring). The genetics of the workers in the hive hasn't changed, just the queen. But they are still not as good tempered as her offspring will be. The "bad tempered" genes are still present but their "activation" is modulated to some extent by the influence of the queen.

 

[B+.]

The sperm from different drones isn't used randomly, more (I think) a case of last in, first out. It wouldn't be one in ten in the hive, more like 1/10th of the queen laying lifespan.

Queen pheromones are important too so the queen's father matters.

Actually the spermatoza from each drone are mixed either during the contraction back through the median oviduct or in the spermatheca of the queen. If it didn't happen this way you would get sequences of individual families of workers during the queens life rather than concurrent sub-families.
Drones are haploid (which means they contain half the chromosomes of the queen and worker, which are diploid). Consequently, all of the semen produced by a single drone are clones (since they inherit all of their genetic material from their mother). However, each drone produced by a queen can be slightly different as there can be ever so slight dfferences in development during meiosis. However, they are as close as it is possible to be in biology. The exception to this is in single drone insemination which is a technique that can be used in instrumental insemination to emphasize a particular trait, but this doesn't occur in open matings.
In pure race breeding, daughter queens(1b) are raised from a proven queen(4a) for use on island mating stations or secluded sites. This is simply to increase the number of drones available so that many virgins can be mated to drones of a selected queen.

 

[McNulty]

Each drone produced by a queen will be different.

 

[Thymallus]

Generally one of 2 types, but subtle variations possible. So they can be different, not will be different.

 

[B+.]

I'm wondering how traits from different drone influence the hives behaviour as a whole.

Behaviour as a whole is too big a topic. You have to be more specific. This paper looks at the behaviour relative to varroa reproduction http://www.researchgate.net/publication/271200806_Does_the_genotype_of_honeybee_1998

 

[For want of a better word]

Single Nucleotide Pollymorphisms then?

Why your fastbuck hybridised bees drift towards nastiness rapidly as their genetic codes are not stabilised within the specific dime.... little to do with the order that eggs are fertilised?

I can spew pure bull ship too!!!

Nos da

 

[beebot]

In pure race breeding, daughter queens(1b) are raised from a proven queen(4a) for use on island mating stations or secluded sites. This is simply to increase the number of drones available so that many virgins can be mated to drones of a selected queen.[/QUOTE]

What is the 1b & 4a all about?

 

[B+.]

What is the 1b & 4a all about?

They are positions in the pedigree of a queen that should help you understand which queen (because you are effectively breeding queens with queens - drones are just a translation of an ovum to a spematoza) I am talking about (see attached)
Each position is given by a numeric prefix and an alphabetic suffix [a=Dam(female) and b=Sire(strictly speaking this is a number of pure mated queens which produce the drones at a mating station. They are daughters of a proven queen)]

This really isn't a topic for the beginners forum. I'll start a thread in the main forum and explain it properly when I get a chance

 

[B+.]

This really isn't a topic for the beginners forum. I'll start a thread in the main forum and explain it properly when I get a chance

I have started a thread here (http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=498218#post498218) for anyone interested in this

 

[B+.]

Each drone produced by a queen will be different.

Agreed. However....

In the paper "Heritabilities of several colony traits in the honeybee", Bienefeld & Pirchner cite a 1950 paper by Polhemus et al (which I am unable to access) " Mating systems in honeybees", Journal of Heredity, 41: 151-154

the haploid drone can be considered a random sample of identical gametes from his female parent

 

[Thymallus]

Single Nucleotide Pollymorphisms then?

Why your fastbuck hybridised bees drift towards nastiness rapidly as their genetic codes are not stabilised within the specific dime.... little to do with the order that eggs are fertilised?

I can spew pure bull ship too!!!

Nos da

Nope, more like simple crossovers, most in the regions related to learning.
It seems only people who don't keep Buckfasts think they rapidly become nasty. Wishful thinking perhaps?

 

[Thymallus]

Agreed. However....

The major concern with drones is not their slight (if any) genetic variability but their sex alleles which will determine which queens they mate either having successful offspring or diploid drones.

 

[McNulty]

Not to take this too far off topic thymallus but every single drone from any queen is genetically different, no maybe about it. I know it isnt a major point but the amount of times i have read that drones are 'in effect' exact copies of each other and their queen leads me to think it is a fairly common idea.

 

[Thymallus]

Please explain further, I'm all ears.

 

[McNulty]

Ok, I can explain but this is a great site that probably explains it a lot better than I can.

http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/genetic_aspects_queen_production_1.html

Click on the blue link at the bottom to continue reading.

Briefly, the queen has 32 chromosomes, 16 from her mother and 16 from her father. Each of these sets of chromosomes code for the same information, each set has 15000+ genes. So for example, lets say the first gene on the first set of chromosomes (G1C1) codes for her toe nail colour. G1C1 might be a 'pink' colour but the corresponding gene on the second set of chromosomes has an allele which is 'blue' in colour. Which one does she express? Assuming mendelian properties lets say the pink is dominant and blue recessive, therefore she has pink toenails. Which gene does she pass on when she produces an egg? The answer is that it is completely random, it could be G1C1 or G1C2, pink or blue. Her drones will vary in their toenail colour. This happens for every one of the 15000+ genes. Almost an infinite number of variations. Thats why drones can express many of the recessive traits that a queen doesn't express, he only has one set of chromosomes. I hope I haven't confused it any more, the site is the best reference.

 

[B+.]

the amount of times i have read that drones are 'in effect' exact copies of each other and their queen leads me to think it is a fairly common idea.

It is. See post 13 above.
There seams to be this chasm between the basic biology and the published papers and I'm not sure why

 

[McNulty]

The glenn apiaries example of two drones emerging next to each other with different colour eyes is the best example of why drones are not exact copies of each other.

edit - Forget my toenail example, glenn apiaries does it better.