Hygienic bees beating varroa - a myth?

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Just been to a very interesting lecture at the convention (thank God there's been one!!) it was meant to be Tautz on bee health but he's been ill and can't traven so instead it was Steve Martin on 'can bees live with varroa' and as there was a crowd behind me I went in.
A lot of positive talk about light at the end of the tunnel and bees and varroa co-existing (which is nice ) all of it boiling down to the work done on deformed wing virus (es) and the connection to colony health/collapse (not CCD for all you handwringers out there!)
It all started out from the discovery that across the board (this is all the data boiled down and simplified BTW) the levels of varroa in the collapsed colonies were the same as in the survivors so varroa is not the terminal cause.
Before Varroa came along all bees carried DWV numerous varieties of DW viruses (probably millions of different ones in each bee) but varroa influence just reduced them to mainly one deadly one - 'type A'.
In the Southern hemisphere bees don't die from varroa infestation, in fact some colonies are riddled with mites but still live. They all have one thing in common - they all have predominantly a different virus 'type B'
Now we've all discussed Ron Hoskins' bees on here and the fact they carry type B but there is no correlation between type b virus and hygienic bees. There is proof of this as it's one of the things they took into consideration on a worldwide study - it was mentioned on more than one occasion/case history 'no connection to hygienic behaviour'.
Basically they think that when Ron took massive casualties at the beginning of his quest he was 'accidentally' left with colonies who had high levels of type B and as he's been basically line breeding these he's strengthened the type B virus.
And there's no point in buying one of Ron's queens as, as soon as they mix with other bees, a fresh dash of type A will just short circuit the mix and you're back to square one.
The 'good' news is all of our bees are beginning to show resistance and will hopefully follow the Southern hemisphere in not needing treatment - eventually.
This post doesn't do justice to the lecture but it's the bare bones of their findings.
In Prof. Martin's words there has been massive developments in the last year or so but there needs a bit more work on it.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Excellent JBM
Just what we all need to hear.
What if you get a few Hoskins queens and flood the area with their drones?
You'd have to get all your neighbours involved though.....and pigs might fly

 

[Dusty Rhodes]

....and pigs might fly

BUT...... they don't carry Varroa!
Win, win.


Duaty

 

[B+.]

Win, win.

Not if you happen to be below a flying pig

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Thanks for taking the trouble, JMB, to report this lecture. I wasn't at the conference so cannot quote academic papers but we do know that within seconds of entering a colony, mites can mimic the scent of the hosts and this is widely reported as to why the bees don't just scrape them off.

When I get certain types of virus, my sense of smell changes. Suppose one effect of Type b DWV is that the hosts' sense of smell is changed such that bees CAN detect the mites - hey presto, they become hygienic. That's one hyperthetical scenario but there must be others.

One other thing that's been happening with Ron's bees is, as well as breeding bees with Type b DWV, he's been breeding mites that also have it so they can pass it to their progeny and/or their host. As you pointed out, more research is needed but I bet the BDI or BBKA don't send any research money in Ron's direction.

Thanks once again

CVB

 

[pargyle]

There are at least six beekeepers (including me) in my area that are now treatment free and have colonies that are suviving for between 3 and 10+ years. The beekeeper who has been treatment free for 10+ years lost colonies in the early years but persisted and bred from the surviving colonies, albeit with open queen mating, he now experiences few, if any, colony losses and certainly no more than the beekeepers in the area that do treat.

It's not for everyone going treatment free and certainly it has risks .. you need a degree of luck to get bees that are capable of surviving and thriving alongside the mites but it is possible. Nobody has yet worked out what the combination of factors that contrive to allow bees to survive without treatment but some, clearly, are managing and ultimately this should be our collective goal. I think OA sublimation as and when necessary is a good point to start becoming treatment free .. it strikes me that the effectiveness of this treatment and the lack of long term exposure to aromatics withinthe hives has to be good for the bees. They need some pressure from varroa to evolve - whether by becoming 'hygienic' or by strains of barrier viruses developing within them but obviously lower mite levels still provide the pressure but without the weight of heavy infestations.

I suggested some years ago (and was shot down in flames) that there should be a national 'deal with varroa' week .. at the time OA by sublimation was fairly uncommon but as it has now started to develop a following it would be an ideal treatment to blanket treat all the hives in an area at the same time and for the following two or three brood cycles ... reducing the incumbent varroa loads in managed hives to a minimal level. Our national association should be looking at this as an iniative .. encouraging local associations to organise those with the kit to offer a service to those who did not have sublimators ... or even investing in an association varrox that could be used by members for the cost of the OA ? I will be talking to my association about such a project ... and if the varroa populations can be lowered generally then, perhaps, more people would be confident enough to tread the treatment free path ? Or at least stop the treatment by rote that, IMO, weakens the bees ability to resist the incumbent motes.

Tin hat on ...

 

[Michael Palmer]

In the Southern hemisphere bees don't die from varroa infestation, in fact some colonies are riddled with mites but still live.

The 'good' news is all of our bees are beginning to show resistance and will hopefully follow the Southern hemisphere in not needing treatment - eventually.

I wonder what NZ beekeepers would say about this. Every one I met, on a recent trip there, treated with bayvarol, formic, or both. Apiaries not treated in time had DWV bees crawling on the ground about the apiary.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

But that's the thing you see - what Martin was saying is basically it has nothing to do with varroa levels or hygienic bees But the prevalence of type B DWV.
All bees carry DWV, they did well before varroa came along even healthy colonies have the odd bee with deformed wings.It's Type a DWV which kills bees not mites now, things have evolved in a very short time, apparently now, the mites have evolved to a point where they cannot survive on their original hosts - Am Ceranae.
The Southern hemisphere (apart from New Zealand) don't even give a thought to varroa. All bees have type B not A DWV. they inspected colonies in Mexico with varroa levels so high that if it was the UK Matin would have put money on the colony dying within a week - but they were doing fine.
Nothing wrong with trying a country wide campaign of knocking back varroa but it won't change the situation - they will return to the same levels as before.
All we can hope is, and it seems to be happening that the incidence of type B will continue to grow all over the country as then, basically varroa levels won't really matter. Martin reckons even now, a lot of people's bees could cope without treatment - it's just finding out whick

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I wonder what NZ beekeepers would say about this. Every one I met, on a recent trip there, treated with bayvarol, formic, or both. Apiaries not treated in time had DWV bees crawling on the ground about the apiary.

I forgot that in my OP - New Zealand is the one exception.

 

[Tremyfro]

So...it would seem to me that a test for type B would be the most useful tool for beekeepers.
How do we test or how can we get our bees tested?
We could then become treatment free immediately.
If type A....not sure what we would do with those bees...could requeening do the trick?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If type A....not sure what we would do with those bees...could requeening do the trick?

No - as I explained earlier - it's to do with the one virus taking over from the kaleidoscope of millions of different DNA strains of DWV in the first place - triggered by stresses caused by varroa initially to bring us type A but now slowly being taken over by the less harmful type B. it's all unstable at the moment and any introduction of a 'type B' queen is pointless as type A spores will quickly be re-introduced and we're back to square one. There is no quick fix - just a gradual (but rapid in evolution terms) transformation

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Suppose one effect of Type b DWV is that the hosts' sense of smell is changed such that bees CAN detect the mites - hey presto, they become hygienic. That's one hyperthetical scenario but there must be others.
CVB

it was mentioned but more to do with ceranae. He didn't mention the 'de scenting' effect of type B although it's interesting to note that the reason ceranae can coexist with varroa D is because they can see the mites on worker brood unlike mellifera where they are invisible in both, so there is less breeding opportunity in just selecting drone brood - also the drone pupa reacts if there is more than two mites in the cell and they get rejected thus you don't get the massive population boom of mites that you get with Apis mellifera.
But, he did say on more than one occasion that there was no evidence of hygeinic behaviour in the resistant colonies in any of the surveys they did, just that it looked like a massive coincidence in Ron's case and may have actually slowed down scientific progress as they had been barking up the wrong tree.
In a nutcase don't be too obsessed with hygienic behaviour as you may be overlooking a lot of resistant colonies who don't exhibit the trait.

 

[Excession]

I don't have a view on this as quite simply I don't pretend to understand it all.

But...

I get the type A type B argument, but I don't understand how not treating helps one but not the other.

Surely kill as many as you can, and the non-lethal ones will still have an evolutionary edge?

Probably shouldn't ask these sorts of questions whilst in the pub...

 

[pargyle]

No - as I explained earlier - it's to do with the one virus taking over from the kaleidoscope of millions of different DNA strains of DWV in the first place - triggered by stresses caused by varroa initially to bring us type A but now slowly being taken over by the less harmful type B. it's all unstable at the moment and any introduction of a 'type B' queen is pointless as type A spores will quickly be re-introduced and we're back to square one. There is no quick fix - just a gradual (but rapid in evolution terms) transformation

As I understand it .. the belief is that the pressure of having to deal with varroa is what is driving the evolutionary development of the type B DWV virus - without the pressure of varroa (ie: in over treated hives) the type B does not have the chance to become the dominant virus.

There is an inference that reducing numbers of mites in the colonies with OA by sublimation assists the colony health generally but the bees need the pressure of some mites in order for evolution to occur.

There are signs that some bees exhibit hygienic behaviour but the waters are still very muddy as to whether it's the chicken or the egg that comes first .. sorry about the mixed metaphores.

My layman's opinion is that we should be trying to reduce varroa numbers nationwide or regionally at least once a year at a given time ..yes they will multiply, but if we kill off a few million by treating at the same time then there will be less to multiply and perhaps, just perhaps, the evolution of our bees or the associated viruses will overtake the threat from the mites - or perhaps I'm living in cloud cuckoo land ? Or, at least in the land of hope ?

 

[BeeJayBee]

I get the type A type B argument, but I don't understand how not treating helps one but not the other.

If you treat all colonies, which will include both typeA and type B dwv virus, you are allowing the typeA virus to continue, instead of it killing the bees and itself.

Surely kill as many as you can, and the non-lethal ones will still have an evolutionary edge?

They will only have the evolutionary edge if you don't interfere. Bees with typeB will survive, bees with typeA will die.

Viruses mutate and adapt more quickly than mites, mites mutate and adapt more quickly than bees. By keeping bees infected with typeA alive, or by trying to, you are keeping failures alive and are allowing the mites to move that virus from one colony to another. The aim should be to try to breed from survivor colonies - those that don't show symptoms of DWV - and have the courage to let the other colonies die. It's a tough call though.

My layman's opinion is that we should be trying to reduce varroa numbers nationwide or regionally at least once a year at a given time

Surely not, not if you want the DWVb to win the battle?

If Australasian etc Amm colonies can live with a heavy mite load, and if Ron's bees can live with a heavy mite load, and none of them show symptoms of DWV then there's no need to kill the mites?

As JBM says about seven posts back, "All we can hope is, and it seems to be happening that the incidence of type B will continue to grow all over the country as then, basically varroa levels won't really matter. Martin reckons even now, a lot of people's bees could cope without treatment - it's just finding out whick"

Did anybody try to kill off Braula?

 

[Fritillary]

This is only considering varroa in relation to DWV viruses though, which are not the only ones. I'm wondering how varroa levels relate to how vulnerable a colony is to chronic paralysis virus? (As that was what caused the damage with my bees last year.)

 

[foghornleghorn]

That would be a disaster, you would just end up rapidly breeding oxalic resistant mites

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

So JBM, is part of this (and your title) a view that breeders of resistant bees are in fact breeding viruses?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'd like to watch this. I wonder if it was recorded

 

[Juhani Lundén]

it was Steve Martin on 'can bees live with varroa'

it was mentioned on more than one occasion/case history 'no connection to hygienic behaviour'.

It all started out from the discovery that across the board (this is all the data boiled down and simplified BTW) the levels of varroa in the collapsed colonies were the same as in the survivors so varroa is not the terminal cause.
Before Varroa came along all bees carried DWV numerous varieties of DW viruses (probably millions of different ones in each bee) but varroa influence just reduced them to mainly one deadly one - 'type A'.
it.

Did the lecturer speak about VSH bees at all?
VSH bees clearly are the most important step forward in the road to treatment free bees and they are hygienic, they take out only varroa infested larvae.