How much brood right now........

[Erichalfbee]

Does any one EVER get 100% or close kill?
(OK a shook swarm or a captured swarm....but we're not talking about this)
If we all practice the IPM that suits isn't that the best we can do and isn't it usually sufficient to let the bees thrive and produce with some coexistence with varroa?
I have had few mites evident this year.My boards have been in for a month, with a small 3" hole and I have yet to see a single mite on them. No oxalic for them this year....
I am not going to go searching and uncapping brood at this time of year and I think it's advice fraught with peril in an inexperienced beekeeper's hands.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

From that

What research supports that statement, which contradicts Jeffree's 7 years of research?

I'm not sure that LASI and Jeffree are inconsistent - and I have struggled with that - because Jeffree is in Aberdeen.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I am not going to go searching and uncapping brood at this time of year and I think it's advice fraught with peril in an inexperienced beekeeper's hands.

Well said - and that's from one of them vitnery type persons - someone with hands on (or hands up) experience not living in the groves of academie

 

[itma]

I've found this on the latest LASI annual progress report. (Jan 2013) https://www.sussex.ac.uk/webteam/gateway/file.php?name=lasi-annual-report-2012.pdf&site=60

Important to note that the student involved only started at the Department in April 2012. And the January 2013 report is talking about what they are wanting to do - in future!
Perhaps a little early to be drawing any conclusions as to typical British overwintering brooding?

Overview and main aim
Hasan Al-Toufailia began his PhD degree in April 2012. His research is currently focusing on the three sections below, one in the area of hive management, one on disease resistance, and one on disease ecology.
Section 1
Oxalic acid has been widely used in many countries as a control for the varroa mite. Its mode
of action is uncertain, but it is known that it is only effective on mites that are living on the adult bees (phoretic) and not on mites inside brood cells. For this reason, it is usually used during the winter when colonies are broodless. Anecdotal evidence suggests, however, that many colonies in Britain may carry brood through much of the winter. We therefore want to monitor brood levels in colonies through the autumn and winter to determine the best times to apply oxalic acid solution. Hasan is seeking volunteers to carry out comparative trials in other areas of Britain (Carreck et al., 2013).
Oxalic acid is commonly used in other countries in one of three ways, by trickling of oxalic acid solution in syrup, by spraying combs, and by sublimation of crystals, but no controlled experiments on efficacy have been carried out in Britain. The aim of the second part of this project is therefore to determine the best method and suitable dose of oxalic acid by treating one hundred honey bee colonies by different methods using three different doses of oxalic acid solutions under British conditions.

I wonder if Dr Alton's date suggestions may have confused local anecdote with her department's planned research investigations?

 

[itma]

I'm not sure that LASI and Jeffree are inconsistent - and I have struggled with that - because Jeffree is in Aberdeen.

Jeffree found that his bees were brooding more in the colder and darker months than in the mildness of October (which I'd say was lighter and milder in Aberdeen than December in Brighton.)

But yes, it'd be nice to have some comparative research in different parts of the country, and updated for the climate change of the last 60 years.
// I can't see that LASI have had time to do much actual research on this (see above).

 

[Hivemaker.]

But yes, it'd be nice to have some comparative research in different parts of the country, and updated for the climate change of the last 60 years.

And the different sub species of bees used in the research.

As i mentioned, with my bees, in this area, the brood minimum, often completely broodless, is last week of August until second or third week in September, and going by the spike in comunications during this period, every year, with the....my bees are queenless, it is similar for some other areas as well, but with the different micro-climates, available forage, and different sub species, there will be no fixed time, or one fits all time for using oxalic.

 

[Tom Bick]

http://adventuresinbeeland.com/2013/12/07/the-great-facebook-oxalic-acid-controversy/

This might be a corker; I'm away thank goodness.

Yes I got the information through Emily’s blog and one I read weekly but decided to quote the face book page as we know things can get a bit prickly at times.

Its a lovely blog and consider Emily one of my two mentors regarding my just started blog Also probably one of the greatest cake bakers in west London and the look on peoples faces when she arrives at the apiary without a cake you would think the sky is about to fall in

 

[beeno]

Hi all,
EXCUSE ME, BUT I thought that the whole issue with OA at Christmas/early Jan. was weather dependent i.e. three weeks of frosty weather, bees tightly clustered leading to no brood! This was indeed the case with two of my hives last year, one of which was totally empty except for bees! Worked for me last year and will do the same again weather permitting!

 

[VEG]

Thats the thing "weather permitting".
What will you do if we dont have a cold spell, unlikely but possible.

 

[beeno]

Thats the thing "weather permitting".
What will you do if we dont have a cold spell, unlikely but possible.

I will cross that bridge when I come to it. In the meantime I will trust to the people on this forum that say we always get a cold snap!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I'll be doing mine over the Cristmas period regardless (unless it's absolutely sub zero in the day. - otherwise the brooding willl pick up and you'll never get the chance.

 

[Luminos]

I'm having trouble reconciling what experienced beekeepers say about "not beekeeping by the calendar," - and Karin stating that the OA should be done "between 10th and 25th December."

 

[Finman]

I've found this on the latest LASI annual progress report. (Jan 2013) https://www.sussex.ac.uk/webteam/gateway/file.php?name=lasi-annual-report-2012.pdf&site=60

?

That is interesting. Very young unit. Started 2008. It seems that the main intention is to teach the pupils to do research. Issues are very old like "how bees find nectar source". About 100 years old problem.

The issues are old and those have studies decades in some countries.
However, the unit seems to be strong and along time it may get usefull to British beekeeping.

Proplem is that University guys do not love much practical issues. They like find something very new on this Earth, even if it is not practical.


Nothing insulation studies----yet!!!

.

 

[Finman]

I'm having trouble reconciling what experienced beekeepers say about "not beekeeping by the calendar," - and Karin stating that the OA should be done "between 10th and 25th December."

That is only if you want to spend you quality time in prison in Cristhmas.

.

 

[itma]

...
I'm not sure what the point might be of doing such sealed brood culling in a different inspection, 2 or 3 days before treatment. Perhaps it was simply more convenient for the experimenters' schedule?
...

It has occurred to me that they would need to be taking a sample of bees before and after treatment to count the varroa. Needing more hive openings and frames out.
My guess would be that they would cull the brood and sample the bees before treatment - thinking about it, they couldn't really trickle or vaporise at the same time as taking a sample of bees from frames. Hence doing their stuff a couple of days before.
And they would be going in again some time after treatment to get another sample of bees in order to measure the mite reduction That inspection would have to be no more than a week after treatment, so as to avoid any problem with mites hiding in NEW capped brood cells ...

/Garbozov told me that their mite counts (for effectiveness measurement) were all based on killing (freezing) a sample of a few hundred bees from each hive and carefully counting the (phoretic) mites discovered.

 

[Finman]

/Garbozov told me that their mite counts were all based on killing (freezing) a sample of a few hundred bees and carefully counting the (phoretic) mites discovered.

Oxalic acid treatments idea is to kill every single mite in the hive before next brooding season. NOt to save them!!!!

What idea is to calculate, if your hive hass a "proper" amount of mites.

If you have in January 10 mites alive, you have over 1000 mites in September.

Why not to kill those 10 mites.

Then you have 100 mites in January. You kill 90% of mites, and again, you have those 10 mites. If you get 70% killed, there 30 mites alive.


Counting mites makes no sense.
Killing makes.
.

 

[itma]

Counting mites makes no sense.
Killing makes.

The point may have been missed that this was research to compare the kill rates when spraying, trickling and vaporising Oxalic.

That needs counting. Before and after.

 

[Finman]

That needs counting. Before and after.

Yes, that gives the efficacy number of treatment.
They have been revieled out during last 15 years.
I wonder, what guys are going to reviele out yet.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

YOxalic acid treatments idea is to kill every single mite in the hive before next brooding season.

It seems that, in this Facebook post or whatever, that is what LASI is going for. That means no sealed brood that is not emerging in the next few days, as I hope we can agree. The controversy is that they-and they are not alone-are suggesting that it is worth the disruption to create such a state if it does not exist. That makes perfect sense to me.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

I'm pretty simple, and I think in terms of analogies when encountering unfamiliar terrain like beekeeping. So here goes how I decided to look at it:

Beek: "Doctor Doctor Doctor: I've been bitten on the behind by a dog that was foaming at the mouth."

Doctor: "Hmm sounds like rabies to me. I need to give you a set of rabies shots. These will make you feel AWFUL for days and, if you have Nosema, will kill you. The bad news is, if the wound is still dirty, the jabs are going to be a complete waste of time. So, lift your skirt/kilt."

Beek: "But it's almost freezing outside!"