Honey £16 per lb

[Hivemaker.]

Is that a euphemism?

No it's a trout.

 

[Drew]

No it's a trout.

Mmmmmm seems a bit fishy!

 

[mazzamazda]

I have been self employed for 18 years and no you can't get tax back for hobbies when you haven't paid tax in the first place! You simply get 20ish% off anything you buy if you run it as a business.

My point is why go telling tales to eBay when some on this forum should be declaring money made from beekeeping!!!!

Mark

 

[Hivemaker.]

My point is why go telling tales to eBay when some on this forum should be declaring money made from beekeeping!!!!

Mark

Never done that either,don't agree with telling tales to e bay or anywhere else come to that,could not really care less what anyone else is doing.

 

[BBG]

if people are selling their honey they have a duty to inform the inland revenue, if you have spent more on equipment than on what you sold your honey for you will get a tax rebate agianst income tax you have payed on other things.

i will be doing a tax return this year for my beekeeping as i dont see why i shouldnt get a tax rebate on what i have spent, nearly £1k even basic rate back that is around £200 rebate as i know i wont be selling any honey this year.

even if it is just a hobby i cant see why i dont get a tax rebate for it. its like buying my work clothes i can reclaim those as they are only worn for work and can prove it, also union membership. my view is that the government can have my money but only what they are due not over that.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/bimmanual/bim75705.htm

May/will block you.

Wait to hear what HMRC say to your claim.


Others interest;

The yachting scenario was one that initially roused the attentions (due to the big mouth of the yacht owner who bragged he was getting lots of tax back and it paid for his hobby).

It went like this:

Pukka chappie earning £nice amount

bought yacht - expensive to run

inspiration - tell IRS he was setting up a charter business

declare a few hundred pounds income each season

claim back all he spent out buying yacht, lifting boat out, maintaining, replacing rigging etc. etc - all stuff normally paid by him to enjoy his hobby

Each year a hefty rebate came his way by way of what he had paid as income tax through his well paid job. = Paid for his hobby

His bragging led to his friends doing the same thing, including the bragging and eventually IRS heard the news and shut them down then made it difficult for legitimate persons wishing to charter out.

HMRC is far, far from stupid - they too listen to those that brag at car boot sales/pubs/markets..........

 

[MandF]

I too am shocked and shamed to be part of this forum after this thread.

How is it the end of the world for a label to be wrong but ok not to declare ANY income whether it be profit or loss to the Taxman, seems one rule for one but some rules for some.

Great forum till now

Erm, for one you dont have to pay tax on any hobby, even if you make a small profit. Second, if you make a profit selling honey I want to know your secret!!

As for the label, if this person is unaware of the rules/regulation with regards to labelling, who knows what else they are unaware of. I'm sure food poisoning or thymol flavoured honey or honey with bee bits etc., will do a lot for the prices the public will pay for OUR honey. Also, flouting the law is not going to make the laws more lax, it is going to make them more onerous for the rest of us.

It really isnt too much to ask is it?

 

[MandF]

if people are selling their honey they have a duty to inform the inland revenue, if you have spent more on equipment than on what you sold your honey for you will get a tax rebate agianst income tax you have payed on other things.

Good luck with that!!

Think about what you are saying - we are all entitled to tax rebates for our hobbies.

So if I buy a season ticket to my local football club, I get the tax back? Or buy a top fishing rod? Or an Aston Martin?

You dont pay income tax on hobbies - therefore you cannot claim a tax rebate!

 

[MandF]

With a hobby you cant claim tax, once you sell things it becomes a taxable income, any things you buy eg extractors, frames etc comes out of the profit and you pay tax on the money you have left. Hivemaker, it doesnt matter which tax bracket you are in you still should pay tax on you £300!!!!

No it is NOT taxable income. It is a hobby, therefore there is no tax implications either way. The only time it becomes an issue is if the line between hobby (beekeeper, car restorer, artist etc) and commercial gets blurred. If you own and maintain 200 hives you might have some difficulty explaining to HMRC that it is a hobby.

 

[MandF]

even more reason to be doing ur tax return if you can get a tax rebate cose ur making a loss then why arnt u claiming it back.

the taxman would be quick enough to prosecute if u didnt tell him of a profit and he found out so make sure u get what ur owed. also dont forget that you can claim back 6 years worth of expenditure and income in the first year you tell them.

for some people this could amount to thousands im sure.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/guidance/selling/examples.htm

See example 1.

 

[Winker]

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/guidance/selling/examples.htm

See example 1.

The Key word there is "Profit"

Hands up those who made a profit this year.

Hivemaker you keep your hand down im not counting you

 

[MandF]

You are even allowed to make a small profit if it is a by-product of your "hobby".

Another way of answering the question is, how many beekeepers have had an HMRC inspection (on another business or in relation to keeping bees) and been told they owe tax on beekeeping related sales (honey, soap, mead, nucs, queens etc)?

Making & selling hives is another matter entirely though

 

[greatbritishhoney]

I suppose it depends what you class as a hobby.
If you've got a couple of hives and you sell the honey to friends, family, neighbours then fair enough, but if you've got say, 5+ hives, and are selling your honey to a local farm shop or similar then I'd say you really should be registered with HMRC as a sole trader.
It is a grey area where hobby ends and business starts.

As for DrS - I seriously doubt that Martin Niemöller intended his poem to be an entreaty to shop people to the authorities for a potentially incorrect label on a jar.

 

[BBG]

No it is NOT taxable income. It is a hobby, therefore there is no tax implications either way. The only time it becomes an issue is if the line between hobby (beekeeper, car restorer, artist etc) and commercial gets blurred. If you own and maintain 200 hives you might have some difficulty explaining to HMRC that it is a hobby.

Very true

To all:

AND

of course that's where the NBU comes in to help their fellow government department to understand who has what, where and what was that little question on there that asked how much honey you produced this year and you answered so rosy-cheeked, innocent and proud of your little charges production capacity ......

Then you have the fact that HMRC will tell a tax-payer:

We think you haven't been declaring your proper income;

We think you owe us £lots and lots for this year past

And of course to help you, we have worked out for the past X years you us tax amounting to:

£a shed load.

If YOU (not HMRC)

can prove to HMRC satisfaction that you didn't earn a £shedload

HMRC wil accept the reduced amount.

Prove, in HMRC speak means:

Proving when and how much you spent on all the equipment you say you don't or do have.

present them with EVERY Invoice for all:

Honey you sold, outgoings such as hives frames, fuel ....

jars you bought - yes including that thousand you bought last year and say you merely acted as a collective for friends (who are now a little distant and inaccessible!) to redistribute. So get them to come forward and tell HMRC that for you and put themselves on HMRC's list of suspects at the same time (that's the sparse bit) <<Don't you love this guy!!

Your accountant - don't sleep well because you think he's been paid to do the job.

He's not responsible for your tax -

even if he charges a reassuringly expensive £80 an hour -

you are -

even if he has made a mistake -

you can sue him -
while you're explaining to HMRC why you don't owe them £abiggershedload than they originally thought.

YOU have to prove YOU don't owe it.

And that's where all those receipts for everything you ever bought and sold over the last few years. The notebook you keep containing the names of shops you sold to (you will have told HMRC most was sold in bulk cheaply?) with the mileages you did in connection with your beekeeping.

All these will help allay HMRC concerns that you haven't been paying tax.

So now there's less tax to pay and only the fine for not paying it on time on top of that if they decide not to prosecute.

So when you're down the pub and about to open your big gate, think on!

Be afraid, be very afraid.



End

 

[MandF]

I suppose it depends what you class as a hobby.
If you've got a couple of hives and you sell the honey to friends, family, neighbours then fair enough, but if you've got say, 5+ hives, and are selling your honey to a local farm shop or similar then I'd say you really should be registered with HMRC as a sole trader.
It is a grey area where hobby ends and business starts.

As for DrS - I seriously doubt that Martin Niemöller intended his poem to be an entreaty to shop people to the authorities for a potentially incorrect label on a jar.

Nope - selling via a farm shop is not a test of whether your beekeeping is commercial vs a hobby.

There are probably a number of tests applied by HMRC, which might include the number of hives (5-10 is definitely ok), whether you have another full time job or not, the number of hours spent and so on. If you fall within their grey area they will probably then look a bit closer at how much you spend on your hobby, and how much you earn.

 

[dpround]

Registering as a small trader is probably essential if you want to stay sqweeky clean. The problem comes I think when you decide after 10 years that you really should register as you are now the largest keeper in the county and then HMRC pop round and ask about last year, and while you are at it, the year before...! So long as you are happy with figures I should think there would be no difficulty in proving that you don't make a profit. So long as you make no profit, you pay no tax. You can even save up previous year's losses against the hope of a future profit, so you will not even pay tax then. What you cannot do is balance the losses of beekeeping against a rebate from your PAYE tax.

Now the real trick is to get VAT registered. Everying you sell is zero rated. Everything you buy has 20% VAT, with the exception of sugar. The VAT man will pay you every quarter. The down side is a bit more paperwork. On balance, I wouldn't hesitate.

David

 

[jezd]

Selling any product via a retail outlet is commercial activity, you are trading regardless.

If you label jars up to the legal requirement (the same labeling law for 2 or 2000 hives) and then sell your product to a shop/outlet then you are trading.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

There are probably a number of tests applied by HMRC, which might include the number of hives (5-10 is definitely ok), whether you have another full time job or not, the number of hours spent and so on. If you fall within their grey area they will probably then look a bit closer at how much you spend on your hobby, and how much you earn.

I agree, but I'm not sure it's safe to say that 5-10 hives is OK.
Say 10 hives produce 50 lbs per hive and you sell it for £5/lb - that's £2500 that HMRC may be very interested in.
They'd be even more interested if you sold it on ebay for £16/lb and made £8000
That's quite a hobby.

 

[MandF]

Selling any product via a retail outlet is commercial activity, you are trading regardless.

If you label jars up to the legal requirement (the same labeling law for 2 or 2000 hives) and then sell your product to a shop/outlet then you are trading.

No you are not, not when it comes to HMRC.

Please check out the link I posted earlier.

 

[jezd]

Disagreed and so will trading standards, if you sell to a shop off site you are trading to gain profit and will be of interest to HMRC and trading standards and the local food regs ppl.

You cant ignore but the degree of interest may vary, volumes, thresholds etc

Why beekeepers seem to think the law is special for them I dont get it.

Since when did a hobby stop it being trading, sole trader status is required if you trade.

Dont like it? then dont go placing you product on the same shelf as Rowse or Gales or any other producer.

IMHO

 

[MandF]

I agree, but I'm not sure it's safe to say that 5-10 hives is OK.
Say 10 hives produce 50 lbs per hive and you sell it for £5/lb - that's £2500 that HMRC may be very interested in.
They'd be even more interested if you sold it on ebay for £16/lb and made £8000
That's quite a hobby.

Yes, and thats why HMRC would apply several tests to determing if someone is running a commercial venture or not. I would suspect though, they would not choose to investigate someone at random who has 10 hives. Advertising at £16/lb on ebay is likely to get you noticed regardless of how many hives you have, especially when you make "world famous" claims, and you are breaking trading standards laws. I think the likelyhood here is that they will get investigated by trading standards first, and if on their visit they discover 10 hives they might pass the information on to HMRC.

I will see if I can find the # hives where you are nominally deemed "commercial".