Home made fondant & glycerin

[RosieMc]

My bees were running out of bakers fondant. With freezing winds and snow blizzards I decided to try to make my own. Never again!

I looked up a recipe = 2kg sugar, 500mls water, 1 tbs glucose. I didn't have any glucose and with hubby on his way home I asked him to pick some up. He came back with a bottle of glycerin saying that the the pharmacist told him it was 'the same thing'.

It's ended up a in a solid unbreakable rock. Any know how I can resuscitate it and is glycerin safe for bees?

 

[Cazza]

Never again!

I looked up a recipe = 2kg sugar, 500mls water, 1 tbs glucose. I didn't have any glucose and with hubby on his way home I asked him to pick some up. He came back with a bottle of glycerin saying that the the pharmacist told him it was 'the same thing'.
QUOTE]

What you really mean is "never again will I send hubby to pick some up."

If you try again with glucose it's easy to make. Sorry, no idea about glycerin.
Cazza

 

[Excession]

I wouldn't personally.

Glycerin is ok for humans but I wouldn't know about Bees.
It can be used as a type of sweetener, and us humans can digest all sorts of crap. But bees? I think I would stick to the three simple carbs sucrose, glucose or fructose.

Giving them 'Splenda' instead may not be a good idea! (analogy warning)

 

[RosieMc]

I wouldn't personally.

Giving them 'Splenda' instead may not be a good idea! (analogy warning)

Only if they need to loose some weight !

 

[Fonso]

I don't know about glycerin, but to re-use the fondant you will need to add a little vinegar as in the attached recipe.

 

[Finman]

.
Give to hives 1:2 syrup. Give 5 kg sugar at same time.

.

Prestons forecast is +6C, and it is not freezing.

Pour syrup into combs and put the comb box under your hivebox. Bees lift the syrup up to brood box.

 

[Finman]

My bees were running out of bakers fondant. ?

What about frame stores? Capped food there?

.

 

[itma]

I don't know about glycerin, but to re-use the fondant you will need to add a little vinegar as in the attached recipe.

No.

Reboiling with ACID (like vinegar - or Cream of Tartar) is a very bad idea indeed if making fondant for bees, rather than cake icing.

Boiling with acid does break down sucrose into glucose & fructose, ("inversion") but it also promotes HMF formation (no problem for humans, toxic to bees).




There's probably a few % glycerin involved.
For the cost of a bag of sugar, I'd bin it rather than bother.
A trace shouldn't harm the bees, excess is unlikely to do good things.
Simplest to bin.

Next time use plenty glucose. You can't add too much (cost considerations will stop you).

 

[Finman]

.
I do not understand the desire to mix all kind of chemicals to the sugar because sugar is best next to honey.

I do not understand that fondant hype either. Bees need to carry water to the hive that they can dilute the food.

In your climate it is easy to bye sugar from supermarket and give syrup.
Professionals know what they do but 2-hive owners do not need not to mimick professionals. They make much things to save work time.

 

[Finman]

No.

Reboiling with ACID (like vinegar - or Cream of Tartar) is a very bad idea indeed if making fondant for bees, rather than cake icing.

Boiling with acid does break down sucrose into glucose & fructose, ("inversion") but it also promotes HMF formation (no problem for humans, toxic to bees).

).

When Internet has professional level bee nutrition reports, NO REPORT advice to invert sugar with acid.

Bees have their own enzymes which split or invert cane sugar to fructose and glucose before it goes into blood circulation.

And this teaching helps nothing, because many beekeepers are fond of humbug.

The question was simple: Stores are low! And that question is very normal.
What happens then: chaos

Solution is simple; add stores by feeding sugar syrup. If it works for many, it will work for you.
Give 1:2 and not 1:1. Task was to add sugar stores and not add water stores.
.

 

[itma]

Glucose is a simple sugar. It is a large proportion of honey.
Calling it a "chemical" would be a bit silly.


If making fondant, some glucose being present does interfere with sucrose ('sugar') crystal formation - so the crystals are (much) smaller and more imperfect - so they don't stick together well - so the fondant is "soft" rather than "rock hard". I think it hangs onto some water as well ...


Anyway, *how* to make it is one question.
*Whether* to make or buy is another, and *when* (or if) to use it at all are completely different questions.


It is important to understand that for bee use, you should NOT use acid (like vinegar). You might get away with using acid, but it is a well-known and an unnecessary risk that can be easily avoided.
Just use a bit of glucose.

 

[itma]

When Internet has professional level bee nutrition reports, NO REPORT advice to invert sugar with acid.

Glad to see that you agree with me.

I was replying to post #5 in this thread, where the 2-postcount writer was wrongly saying that reboiling with vinegar was necessary.

 

[RosieMc]

light on stores, but there should be sufficient until the fondant goes on.
In the meantime I will mix up some 1:2 sugar syrup as suggested, and pour into the comb.

and yes, I will bin the home made stuff and never attempt it again. A complete waste of time and money

On the subject of adding vinegar, I found a recipe on the web posted by Edinburgh and Midlothian Beekeepers Association -
Ingredients (scaleable):
4 parts granulated sugar
1 part water
1 Teaspoon White vinegar

http://www.edinburghbeekeepers.org.uk/downloads/Fondant-Recipe.pdf


Thank you to all who replied, and hope that we have all learned something, even if it's 'don't bother'

 

[Hivemaker.]

Cream of tartar was once used in making bee candy.

Many beekeepers add vinegar or lemon juice to sugar syrup, to adjust the pH nearer to that of honey.

 

[Bees15]

Try sugar cake, just spay water on granulated sugar

 

[itma]

...

On the subject of adding vinegar, I found a recipe on the web posted by Edinburgh and Midlothian Beekeepers Association -
Ingredients (scaleable):
4 parts granulated sugar
1 part water
1 Teaspoon White vinegar

http://www.edinburghbeekeepers.org.uk/downloads/Fondant-Recipe.pdf

Cream of tartar was once used in making bee candy.

Many beekeepers add vinegar or lemon juice to sugar syrup, to adjust the pH nearer to that of honey.

The forum often demonstrates that many beeks know diddly about science!

Note that the recipe quoted uses NO glucose.
It only produces 'soft' fondant because of some sucrose having been split into glucose+fructose.
Boiling a fructose solution in an acid environment makes HMF.
HMF is toxic to bees.
Enough will kill them.
Smaller doses that don't kill them don't actually "make them stronger".
The bees are better off avoiding HMF as far as possible.

The traditional (confectionary-derived) acid methods are definitely not the best, or safest, methods of making fondant for the bees.


This isn't new science.
One USDA review (as far back as 1977) of bee-sugar research commented

Bailey also found that 8-year-
old honey had dysenteric effects much like poisonous sugars: an absorption peak matching
hydroxymethyl furfural correlated with toxicity of old honey and of acid-hydrolyzed syrups. Recent tests
(Jachimowicz and El Sherbiny 1975; Barker 197Gb) show that hydroxymethyl furfural can be toxic when
fed in glucose plus fructose at dosages found in some samples of acid-hydrolyzed or heated syrup and
old or heated honey.
...

Bailey, L. 1966. The effect of acid-hydrolyzed sucrose on honeybees. J. Apic. Res. 5:127-136.
...
Jachimowicz, T. and G. El Sherbiny. 1975. Zur Problematik der Vermendung von Invertzucker fur die
Bienenfutterung. Apidologie 6:121-143.

http://ww.three-peaks.net/PDF/feed_Considerations in Selecting Sugars for Feeding to Honey Bees.pdf

 

[Hivemaker.]

That old method of adding cream of tartar was not good.

Adding the cider vinegar or lemon juice to the finished syrup seems to be quite popular, nosema and other pathogens cannot thrive as well. Honey has a lot of acids in it.

 

[Finman]

Adding the cider vinegar or lemon juice to the finished syrup seems to be quite popular, nosema and other pathogens cannot thrive as well. Honey has a lot of acids in it.

Honey is full of living bacteria and yeast. When you put there water, it starts to ferment at once. pH does not kill evil things. pH 4 is very common in nature. Low water content keeps honey unfermented. You know that.

Honey pH is 3,5 - 6,0
Lemon pH is 2.0-2,4
apple cider vinegar is typically between pH 4.25 and 5.00

Folks make their mixtures without knowing anything about these things: "I heard that..."



Look at that scenery. Soil pH is about 4-4.5

.

 

[alanf]

The traditional (confectionary-derived) acid methods are definitely not the best, or safest, methods of making fondant for bees

Agree. Vinegar, lemon juice, cream of tartar are all acids making fondant through acid hydrolysis. You're making HMF at the same time which really isn't a good idea for bees. It looks like caterers fondant, but it isn't. Caterers fondant is made mechanically, not with heat and acid. Under kitchen conditions you have little control and no way of knowing how much HMF has been produced.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Google is your friend Finman,there is plenty of research if you have the time to look.

Bit from that guy over the pond...you can find more yourself.

............................................................................................

Sugar syrup has a much higher pH (6.0) than Honey (3.2 to 4.5) (Sugar is more alkali). Conversely, honey has a much lower pH than sugar syrup (Honey is more acidic). This affects the reproductive capability of virtually every brood disease in bees plus Nosema. They all reproduce better at pH 6.0 than at 4.5.
Chalkbrood as example

"Lower pH values (equivalent to those found in honey, pollen, and brood food) drastically reduced enlargement and germ-tube production. Ascosphaera apis appears to be a pathogen highly specialized for life in honeybee larvae." --Author. Dept. Biological Sci., Plymouth Polytechnic, Drake Circus, Plymouth PL4 8AA, Devon, UK. Library code: Bb. Language: En. Apicultural Abstracts from IBRA: 4101024

"Similar information is available concerning other bee diseases. Try a search for pH and AFB or EFB or Nosema and you’ll find similar results on their reproductive capability related to the pH or honey and sugar syrup

"Differences in pH affect other beneficial and benign organisms in the hive. The other 8,000 microorganisms that are also in the hive are affected by changes in pH. Using sugar syrup also disrupts the ecological balance of the hive by disrupting the pH of the food in the hive and the food in the bees’ gut. "

These are some acids in honey.

Acid content

The average pH of honey is 3.9, but can range from 3.4 to 6.1. Honey contains many kinds of acids, both organic and amino. However, the different types and their amounts vary considerably, depending on the type of honey. These acids may be aromatic or aliphatic (non-aromatic). The aliphatic acids contribute greatly to the flavor of honey by interacting with the flavors of other ingredients. Gluconic acid, for instance, is a flavor enhancer.

Honey can contain up to 18 of the 20 amino acids. However, amino acid content is almost negligible in honey, accounting for only 0.05–0.1% of the composition. The main amino acid is proline. Amino acids are derived almost solely from the bodies of the bees.

Organic acids comprise most of the acids in honey, accounting for 0.17–1.17% of the mixture. Gluconic acid is the most prevalent. Gluconic acid is formed by the actions of an enzyme called glucose oxidase. Other organic acids are minor, consisting of formic, acetic, butyric, citric, lactic, malic, pyroglutamic, propionic, valeric, capronic, palmitic, and succinic, among many others.[23][24]