Hive insulation

[Finman]

We have a picture from our smallhouses and flats, where our enegly leaks. I did not found such from UK.

- ventilation 35%
- warm water to drain 20%
- windows and doors 20%
- inner roof and loft 7%
- walls 14%
- the basement of the house

 

[user 20297]

You have too much time on your hands

View attachment 29147

I take that as a compliment.

 

[Apiarisnt]

We have a picture from our smallhouses and flats, where our enegly leaks. I did not found such from UK.

- ventilation 35%
- warm water to drain 20%
- windows and doors 20%
- inner roof and loft 7%
- walls 14%
- the basement of the house

Here in the UK we have a little catching up to do: UK homes losing heat up to three times faster than European neighbours | Press Release

 

[Patrick1]

I'm glad I don't live in one of your properties.

A building should be completely sealed between interior and exterior to the extent that some arrangements require an additional, continuous vapour barrier inboard of the insulation. Even a "cold-bridge".... a piece of building construction which is exposed on the inside and outside of a building would be designed out these days.

Depending on the design of the insulating envelope, it is often necessary to have a continuous air gap external to the insulation but PIR is always tightly jammed between studwork or ratfers....look up the Building Regs. even though you're sure.

Oh thanks for that misinformation, cold bridges and cavities are not classed as ventilation. With your theory, your roof tiles are glued down and sealed just like the vents above your DPC and lets not forget the trickle vents in the windows, ventilation is essential.

I am just working on my next project 8 years in the planning, modern housing and so much more, believe it or not this 100 acre £55M project requires building regs and compliance

snowdownpark

 

[Patrick1]

I thought eaves ventilation was required by law for some housing?

It is part of building regs

 

[user 20297]

Oh thanks for that misinformation, cold bridges and cavities are not classed as ventilation. With your theory, your roof tiles are glued down and sealed just like the vents above your DPC and lets not forget the trickle vents in the windows, ventilation is essential.

I am just working on my next project 8 years in the planning, modern housing and so much more, believe it or not this 100 acre £55M project requires building regs and compliance

snowdownpark

@Patrick1 ,I have no doubt that you know your stuff but you are now deliberately conflating two types of ventilation which have different purposes; I think this was your confuson when you originally said. "Kingspan........is left loose to allow for essential air flow." Home ventilation is never intentionally achieved this way. Internal ventilation in modern houses is controlled, frequently this is done by mechanical ventilation. This is partly because the fit of PIR panels is so not "loose". This is because building regulations, with the exception of a few, specialised constructional types, insist on the target being that any new house is completely airtight.

Taking this back to beekeeping, let's say you had two spare pieces of Kingspan and they roughly fit together, side by side, under the roof. Despite the gaps between the pieces and between the insulation and the edge, will it"still do its job" as you have said?

PS. Why not run my "misinformation" past your B.C. Officer and if they fnd any flaw in what I have said I will offer my sincere apologies for contradicting you.

 

[Boston Bees]

@Patrick1 ,I have no doubt that you know your stuff but you are now deliberately conflating two types of ventilation which have different purposes; I think this was your confuson when you originally said. "Kingspan........is left loose to allow for essential air flow." Home ventilation is never intentionally achieved this way. Internal ventilation in modern houses is controlled, frequently this is done by mechanical ventilation. This is partly because the fit of PIR panels is so not "loose". This is because building regulations, with the exception of a few, specialised constructional types, insist on the target being that any new house is completely airtight.

Taking this back to beekeeping, let's say you had two spare pieces of Kingspan and they roughly fit together, side by side, under the roof. Despite the gaps between the pieces and between the insulation and the edge, will it"still do its job" as you have said?

Bit confused Beebe. I am no expert, but I have watched several houses being built near where I live, including one that has just gone up. They build an inner skin of breeze blocks, and an outer skin of stones/bricks, and in between the two they put slabs of insulation. The slabs sit on top of each other loosely, and don't appear to be stuck to either the inside or the outside wall. Are you saying this isn't how it should be?

 

[user 20297]

Bit confused Beebe. I am no expert, but I have watched several houses being built near where I live, including one that has just gone up. They build an inner skin of breeze blocks, and an outer skin of stones/bricks, and in between the two they put slabs of insulation. The slabs sit on top of each other loosely, and don't appear to be stuck to either the inside or the outside wall. Are you saying this isn't how it should be?

Kingspan themselves state that you should , ".....ensure there are no gaps between.... .......TW50 boards."
In Scotland, the prevailing constructional method is timber-frame, in which the insulation is packed between timber studwork and is never in contact with external conditions. In standard construction using blockwork, as you describe, the boards you see being fitted are retained tightly against the inner wall and each other using special clips on the wall-ties. If fitted according to manufacturer's instructions, all edges against window surrounds or any other opening should be sealed using flexible sealant. I don't know if it is standard practise, but ideally, the outward-facing joints between boards should be sealed using foil tape or flexible sealant.

Air-tightness and insulation are complementary to each other in modern building design and construction. Ventilation becomes a very important,, but separate factor to consider as a consequence of this,.But the loose fitting of any PIR board has no part to play in ventilation of houses or beehives.

 

[Finman]

They build an inner skin of breeze blocks, and an outer skin of stones/bricks, and in between the two they put slabs of insulation.

That way it does not go.

You can look from google the wall construction pictures. There are several layers of material, which have different purposes. Energy leaking is not the only meaning.

The outer layer in houses is rain barrier . It can be made from different materials.

One basic mistake smong beekeepers is the wooden hive should be painted that rainwater does not go into the wood. Paint seals the natural wracks of the wood. On another hand bees produce respiration water inside the hive, it should be it conducted to the open air. Then there are insulation layers, which stop the water's way to open air.

Paint should be such that it allows wood to dry.

 

[Murox]

Bit confused Beebe. I am no expert, but I have watched several houses being built near where I live, including one that has just gone up. They build an inner skin of breeze blocks, and an outer skin of stones/bricks, and in between the two they put slabs of insulation. The slabs sit on top of each other loosely, and don't appear to be stuck to either the inside or the outside wall. Are you saying this isn't how it should be?

They certainly should NOT be sat loosely like that. Recent TV programme ( cant recall channel sorry) highlighted how badly builders constructed new builds by using a simple smoke bomb in the house an filmed the results of smoke pouring out of just about every join/joint in the house. The owners had been complaining that they couldn't heat the house properly, that it was draughty even though it was a new build. Big companies, you know their names, are particularly bad at selling sub standard houses all over the country. Its been a big industry rip off for a while. CAVEAT EMPTOR. Without being deliberately provocative/political - why do you think successive governments shy away from actually tackling the housing issues in UK?

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Bit confused Beebe. I am no expert, but I have watched several houses being built near where I live, including one that has just gone up. They build an inner skin of breeze blocks, and an outer skin of stones/bricks, and in between the two they put slabs of insulation. The slabs sit on top of each other loosely, and don't appear to be stuck to either the inside or the outside wall. Are you saying this isn't how it should be?

No cavity wall ties? Building Control might be very interested in your claim. My extension has slabs of semi rigid rockwool in the cavity. Ties run through these slabs. Yes they sit on each other but there's no draught gap betwixt the slabs and they certainly aren't likely to shift about once both wall skins are constructed. For the avoidance of doubt I did have stage inspections by the local BCO team.

 

[Repwoc]

I'm about to begin construction of a new Passivhaus dwelling. The highly insulated timber frame building will be airtight and tested to be airtight, otherwise the Mechanical Ventilation and Heat Recovery (MVHR) system will be ineffective. One day (soon I hope) all new buildings will be built like this or "net zero" won't be possible.

 

[Patrick1]

I'm about to begin construction of a new Passivhaus dwelling. The highly insulated timber frame building will be airtight and tested to be airtight, otherwise the Mechanical Ventilation and Heat Recovery (MVHR) system will be ineffective. One day (soon I hope) all new buildings will be built like this or "net zero" won't be possible.

This is really not right, either you have been sold a scheme that cannot work or you don’t understand the basic principles of construction, you are using organic materials that are “live” if you do not ventilate you will create the perfect environment for woodworm and bugs, even treated timber can be affected, the end cut is never treated.
How are going to remove condensation and stale air, running electric fans day and night ? building control will no pass this build method.

 

[Murox]

This is really not right, either you have been sold a scheme that cannot work or you don’t understand the basic principles of construction, you are using organic materials that are “live” if you do not ventilate you will create the perfect environment for woodworm and bugs, even treated timber can be affected, the end cut is never treated.
How are going to remove condensation and stale air, running electric fans day and night ? building control will no pass this build method.

Pretty much YES.
Have read of this explanation.

 

[Repwoc]

This is really not right, either you have been sold a scheme that cannot work or you don’t understand the basic principles of construction, you are using organic materials that are “live” if you do not ventilate you will create the perfect environment for woodworm and bugs, even treated timber can be affected, the end cut is never treated.
How are going to remove condensation and stale air, running electric fans day and night ? building control will no pass this build method.

It really is right. Read the links I provided. Yes, mechanical ventilation means just that, a ventilation system driven by electricity. Moist stale air is removed from bathrooms, kitchens etc and passed through a heat exchanger to warm the incoming fresh air. The manufacturers claim up to 91% efficiency. These systems have been in use for decades in other countries, it's just the UK that doggedly persists in constructing thermally inefficient and drafty buildings using 'traditional' methods.

 

[robmort]

Yes builders often don't have a clue and/or don't care about proper insulation, they just want to finish the job quickly and building inspectors don't see or bother about the detail of stopping drafts. I had/have this problem on my otherwise well-contructed house of only 20 years old. There is no point in insulating if you then let drafts take away the heat from the inside.

 

[Patrick1]

Drafts are not the same a good ventilation, the “explanations” you have are for a different country, we are an Island with totally different climate changes. Show me one example of this type of build in the UK that has been successfully operating for 5 years

We have many examples of failed housing using cavity fill systems and foamed roofs all have been through the courts and huge remedial and compensation has been paid. Sealing a house up just doesn’t work.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Sealing a house up just doesn’t work.

It seems to on Grand Designs

 

[pargyle]

It seems to on Grand Designs

A former beekeeper in our association has a nice little business testing new houses to ensure they are airtight - they shut all the doors and windows and then pump air into the house and check to see if it will hold the additional pressure. He also offers and infra red camera service to new builds - they put the heating on and he photographs the external envelope and identifies any heat loss points.

I thought all modern houses had to meet some minimum standards or airtightness and insulation ?

 

[Poly Hive]

Ignoring all the faff about building regs and going back to what the forum is supposed to be for ie beekeeping.

OP? The research into OMF floors conducted in Aberdeenshire concluded that the ventilated floor should be coupled with top insulation over no holes crownboards. This was pre varroa and was research into successful Wintering. It's very simple, holes below and none above. It's only been 40+ years so I suppose in the next 100 it might actually be recognised. Though I ain't holding my breath.

PH