Hive Insulation - October BBKA News

[Cussword]

If only we could persuade a certain person - no names, no pack drill - to write the definitive article on the thermodynamics of hives.

CVB

I think it was Beecraft that quoted Derek last year.

It would be polite, following the rubbish (in my opinion) they've just printed, if BBKA News printed his findings.

It would be handy. Then my association wouldn't think I was weird for covering my hives in celotex

 

[Finman]

.
No one in my country can make science about insulation, because we know it. But to this sentence the harmony ends. Guys have all kind of innovations, but...

In human house construction level we have lots of serious problems. Condensation points will emerge in odd places and huge number of buildings have turned to " mold houses".

Leaking roof is often a start to the problem. Condensation inside insulation is common. ... What to do? It is then too late to think when house is full of mold spores.

 

[MartinL]

., but...

In human house construction level we have lots of serious problems. Condensation points will emerge in odd places and huge number of buildings have turned to " mold houses". . . . . . . It is then too late to think when house is full of mold spores.

That's why UK building regs insist on ventilation!

 

[Finman]

That's why UK building regs insist on ventilation!

Ventilation does not help if mold formation has begun somewhere in the house.

My grand child was in a 2 years old day care house. Now it is closed. The reason revieled out. The new concrete basis was not dry, but it was closed with final floor material too early. Floor started to rotten. This happened last year.

We knew what happens if you do not have time to wait drying up, but how ever floor was closed.

Roof is often a reason to mold. Now when we think that beekeepers make bee yards on the roofs, I am quite sure that the planner of the house did not planned that some day hundreds of kilos material will be stored on the roof.

I would keep myself very far from roofs, is it own of somebody's else.
.

You can see construction examples from google pics and from youtube, but I think that many of those solutions are not allowed in Finland.
.


.

 

[Finman]

.
When I look wall pictures about insulation, we have a recommendations

1) outer cover (rain cover)
2) air gap
3) wind closer board
4) insulation layers

Common sense solution:

1) Outer cover
2) air gap filled with insulation material
.3) no moisture barrier inside the wall

Hive wall

Rain water makes the wall wet from outside

Condensation makes wet from inside

.

 

[user 6228]

.
When I look wall pictures about insulation, we have a recommendations

1) outer cover (rain cover)
2) air gap
3) wind closer board
4) insulation layers

Common sense solution:

1) Outer cover
2) air gap filled with insulation material
.3) no moisture barrier inside the wall

Hive wall

Rain water makes the wall wet from outside

Condensation makes wet from inside

.

Alas the bees are intent on having a vapour barrier on the inside wall of the nest by plastering it with propolis. Perhaps they know something

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Alas the bees are intent on having a vapour barrier on the inside wall of the nest by plastering it with propolis. Perhaps they know something

I was going to post on how desirable that is. Of course they do (as do you): basic thermo / building regs. Vapour barrier on warm side. The opposite will kill a house / tree / hive.

 

[Finman]

Alas the bees are intent on having a vapour barrier on the inside wall of the nest by plastering it with propolis. Perhaps they know something

No...
Simple wooden hive has nothing to do with vapor barrier.
Propolis layer us not even and it is not watertight. When I have wooden inner cover 9 mm, it moves moisture through and I can see condensation every morning in lower surface of metal rain cover. I have so called respirating inner cover.

Bees knowledge does not help when a beekeeper put the bees somewhere.

Bees know, that is do-nothing-fairytale. But surely audiance likes this kind of strories.
.

 

[Finman]

I was going to post on how desirable that is. Of course they do (as do you): basic thermo / building regs. Vapour barrier on warm side. The opposite will kill a house / tree / hive.

You really believe that?
Or are you pure opportunist?

Bees know something, because they lived even then when a human was in lizard mode.
.

 

[user 6228]

That's why UK building regs insist on ventilation!

but the building regs are working to a different comfort diagram,
The one for honeybees has humidities from 90% to 75% RH and temperatures 34C +. They also dont reckon on the front door being left open 24x 7 x 365

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Bees know something,

As I said: of course they do.

The problem I have had with condensation has been in the bottom box of double brood where I have not been able to condense onto one. That's a bit of a separate issue though.

 

[Finman]

As I said: of course they do.

The problem I have had with condensation has been in the bottom box of double brood where I have not been able to condense onto one. That's a bit of a separate issue though.

IT is same issue: heat economy of wintering hive. Condensation onto lower combs generates mould onto combs. But nothing more harm. That happens in the poly box too.

One bigger problem is that if a pollen frame is against the wall, it takes badly mold and spoil the pollen. I avoid it when I put a foundation or white comb against the wall.

 

[user 6228]

No...
Simple wooden hive has nothing to do with vapor barrier.
Propolis layer us not even and it is not watertight. When I have wooden inner cover 9 mm, it moves moisture through and I can see condensation every morning in lower surface of metal rain cover. I have so called respirating inner cover.

Bees knowledge does not help when a beekeeper put the bees somewhere.

Bees know, that is do-nothing-fairytale. But surely audiance likes this kind of strories.
.

you can get condensation on under your tin roof without it coming from the bees
propolis is not liquid water proof but nearly completely water vapour impermeable upto RH 90%

its buried in this reference for tree resins
Hagenmaier, R. D., & Shaw, P. E. (1992). Gas Permeability of Fruit Coating Waxes. Journal of the American Society for Horticultural Science, 117(1), 105–109. Retrieved from http://journal.ashspublications.org/content/117/1/105.abstract

 

[Finman]

you can get condensation on under your tin roof without it coming from the bees
propolis is not liquid water proof but nearly completely water vapour impermeable upto RH 90%

its buried in this reference for tree resins
Hagenmaier, R. D., & Shaw, P. E. (1992). Gas Permeability of Fruit Coating Waxes. Journal of the American Society for Horticultural Science, 117(1), 105–109. Retrieved from http://journal.ashspublications.org/content/117/1/105.abstract

You are now handling things what you do not know at all.

.stop now when it is not too late. You have not slightes experience about these things.

Tel me how I get 3 litre water under my tin roof? The insulation matress has 3 kg water. That happens in certain cases.
.
Be carefull. You do not even know my roof structure.

I have kept this roof structure 30 years. Why would I keep such roof which gather water under the tin? Am I so stupid?


.

 

[Finman]

.
My tin roof structure:

- 4 wooden piece of board. They make a board box.
- a curved tin
- lids, which throws water out from hivewall
- board box does not become wet during rain

- a wooden bar goes between basic box and tin. It makes the tin curve and curve gap works as ventilation hole.

i use the roof as landing basis when I lift boxes off from hive (upside down)