Hive Insulation - October BBKA News

[madasafish]

There is an article on Hive Insulation in BBKA News page 347-348 which discusses the issues involved. (October version)

It's conclusions:"I am unconvinced that fully insulating hives is better for our bees .. and my own .. and other beekeepers views .. confirm this view"

So anyone using polyhives , which includes most of Europe, and the Finns and Swedes .and those of us insulating our hives - and the Americans using hive jackets - are all wrong.

There are NO scientific studies quoted except a 1971 Seeley drawing of the winter cluster.

!

Edit:

Elsewhere in the same magazine, there is a series on WBC hives.(Page 352). Advocates of these claim they are better for bees due to the increased insulation. Perhaps the author of one article could contact the other and each tell the other why they are each incorrect...

 

[alldigging]

Just looking online, I don't remember the September cover... Have I missed another issue?


Back issues available for members at
http://www.-------------/news_and_events/bbka_new/bbka_news_back_issues

 

[Millet]

There is an article on Hive Insulation in BBKA News page 347-348 which discusses the issues involved.

It's conclusions:"I am unconvinced that fully insulating hives is better for our bees .. and my own .. and other beekeepers views .. confirm this view"

So anyone using polyhives , which includes most of Europe, and the Finns and Swedes .and those of us insulating our hives - and the Americans using hive jackets - are all wrong.

There are NO scientific studies quoted except a 1971 Seeley drawing of the winter cluster.

!

I am far from an expert but i would rather read the Sunday Sport than the BBKA magazine, i got a few given a while back and i only managed to have a quick flick through them before throwing them in the bin after reading a bit on winter preparation, in the article it stated that the crown board needed to be raised on match sticks which i know is a load of rubbish.
All the information anyone needs is on this Forum.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I am far from an expert but i would rather read the Sunday Sport than the BBKA magazine

The only difference being there seems to be more tits on the second publication you mention

 

[Finman]

There are NO scientific studies quoted except a 1971 Seeley ....

!

Good news...You have eyes in your heads

.

 

[pargyle]

It's not the September issue - it must be October and mine hasn't arrived yet.

As for what the article says - I'll wait and read it before passing final comment but it's rather typical of old school BBKA dyed in the wool beekeepers who frankly do more damage than good with their dismal and outdated ideas.

It's barmy really because in the September issue there's an article extolling the overwintering benefits of WBC hives that (almost) starts with the words " You will be aware of the problem we face with our honey bees dying of cold over winter" and telling us how Nationals can be converted to WBC.

I think most people on here (with one or two exceptions) are aware that insulation is a massive aid to our bees both in winter and in summer ...

But .. I know a number of beekeepers who tell me 'Keep 'em cold, they will eat less over winter' ... the message doesn't get through I'm afrraid - and I think it's fairly general throughout a lot of our beekeepers.

I take an empty Poly Hive to a lot of the functions we attend and it's truly amazing how few beekeepers have ever seen one - let alone used one ! When you suggest a slab of Celotex on top of the crown board is a help as well - You get the look of 'What ??'.

We have a long way to go ... Bill Bielby got it right in 1972 'You can never have too much insulation' and quoting from Free & Simpson "The higher the rate of heat loss from the hive,the more food will have to be consumed to generate heat to replace heat lost. " and "For most economical wintering, hives should be highly insulated and completely draughtproof".

If Bill had been around today he would have had Poly hives or Celotex bonnets and piles of celotex on the top of his hives..... 50 years on and there are still people out there that put matchsticks under the crown board to 'stop the condensation in winter'.

Defies any logic ...

 

[madasafish]

Just looking online, I don't remember the September cover... Have I missed another issue?


Back issues available for members at
http://www.-------------/news_and_events/bbka_new/bbka_news_back_issues

October 2016 version.

 

[user 6228]

There is an article on Hive Insulation in BBKA News ...
There are NO scientific studies quoted except a 1971 Seeley drawing of the winter cluster.

did they read the words as well as look at the pictures?

 

[alldigging]

October 2016 version.

I know he said October. I just don't remember September's having arrived. October's landed on the doormat about 15 minutes after I posted here.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Not a member. WBKA. Can somebody pm me their username and password so that I can have a gander. Promise no abuse of the information.

 

[pargyle]

I know he said October. I just don't remember September's having arrived. October's landed on the doormat about 15 minutes after I posted here.

That's alright then ... September cover had a photo of a mouse nesting in the bottom of a super frame ... Must have been in a stored stack of them - can't see my bees letting a mouse nest over the top of them !!

 

[user 6228]

Read it...

Its written by a Brother Adam follower from the SBA.

I gave a lecture to the SBA, Following an very long introduction I had to speed up, however I finished in good time to allow several questions (10 minute from the end time), but I was only allowed one question from the audience. This was a pre-prepared read out question about Brother Adams views.

So I have since read up on the work of Brother Adam (Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey).

There is no detailed description or quantification in his work of the insulation used and how it was attached or any top ventilation or vapour barrier.

These details are crucial to assess his work.

If you insulate and then low resistance ventilate you dessicate your bees as well as chill them. If you insulate the sides and the leave the feed holes open and have a conventional roof you do the same. This is because the energy saved goes into moving the air, in what is known as stack ventilation.

Other researchers who have used poly hives with top ventilation have got the same results as Brother adam (Dodologlu 2004)

Another researcher claiming that top ventilation made no difference used systems that had very very high flow resistance from the cavity. (Fries, I. 1982)

Unless you quantify the heat conductance and the flow resistance, the results you get are going to be very variable and therefore meaningless.

The article in BBKA news quotes T.D. Seely The first quotation is a restatement of E. Southwicks research. This is constant temperature metabolic rate i.e infinite conductance. It says nothing about bee metabolic rate in a low conductance environment e.g. tree nest - remember honeybees are not thermoregulating except for brood maintenance. Read Southwicks research its not as cut and dried as you may think.

The quotation of K. Delaplane is just the facts that the lumped conductance is also affected by the convection heat tranfer coefficient and the rate of evapouration. i.e. you can make up for a lack of insulation by sheltering the hive or you could just insulate if sheltering isnt an option

In its conclusion The article states "It seems obvious that fully insulating a hive will result in higher temperatures inside"

Thats making an anthropocentric assumption, that the bees either cannot or will chose not to alter their heat output or are determined to regulate upwards their nest temperature. It is quite possible that in a insulated nest they will reduce their heat output and let the nest temperature drop as per our observations.

he goes on :
"I would not argue with the science behind the thermal performance of nests."

The wording indicates he is aware of my work but he doesnt quote it

"However, I am unconvinced that fully insulating hives is better for our bees"

Better for the bees or the beekeepers? remember most animals (and plants) response to stress is ?



Dodologlu, A., DÜLGER, C., & Genc, F. (2004). Colony condition and bee behaviour in honey bees ( Apis mellifera ) housed in wooden or polystyrene hives and fed “ bee cake ” or syrup. Journal Of Apicultural Research, 43(1), 3–8.

Fries, I. (1982). Outdoor wintering of honeybees in top-ventilated hives. Journal of Apicultural Research, 21(4), 212–215. http://doi.org/10.1080/00218839.1982.11100544

Southwick, E. E. (1982). Metabolic energy of intact honey bee colonies. Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology -- Part A: Physiology, 71(2), 277–281. http://doi.org/10.1016/0300-9629(82)90400-5

 

[sherwood]

It's not the September issue - it must be October and mine hasn't arrived yet.

As for what the article says - I'll wait and read it before passing final comment but it's rather typical of old school BBKA dyed in the wool beekeepers who frankly do more damage than good with their dismal and outdated ideas.

It's barmy really because in the September issue there's an article extolling the overwintering benefits of WBC hives that (almost) starts with the words " You will be aware of the problem we face with our honey bees dying of cold over winter" and telling us how Nationals can be converted to WBC.

I think most people on here (with one or two exceptions) are aware that insulation is a massive aid to our bees both in winter and in summer ...

But .. I know a number of beekeepers who tell me 'Keep 'em cold, they will eat less over winter' ... the message doesn't get through I'm afrraid - and I think it's fairly general throughout a lot of our beekeepers.

I take an empty Poly Hive to a lot of the functions we attend and it's truly amazing how few beekeepers have ever seen one - let alone used one ! When you suggest a slab of Celotex on top of the crown board is a help as well - You get the look of 'What ??'.

We have a long way to go ... Bill Bielby got it right in 1972 'You can never have too much insulation' and quoting from Free & Simpson "The higher the rate of heat loss from the hive,the more food will have to be consumed to generate heat to replace heat lost. " and "For most economical wintering, hives should be highly insulated and completely draughtproof".

If Bill had been around today he would have had Poly hives or Celotex bonnets and piles of celotex on the top of his hives..... 50 years on and there are still people out there that put matchsticks under the crown board to 'stop the condensation in winter'.

Defies any logic ...

If you have solid floors there is every need to get rid of condensation in the hives hence the matchsticks under the crown boards. The cold will kill but the cold an damp will do it a lot quicker.

 

[Hivemaker.]

If you have solid floors there is every need to get rid of condensation in the hives hence the matchsticks under the crown boards.

I do use solid floors, no matchsticks, nor roof vents, and have no problems with condensation in the hives.

 

[madasafish]

I have solid floors- and mesh ones. And lots of insulation.
No matchsticks.
And no signs of condensation in either hive type.



I assume those who use matchsticks are just rubbish beekeepers

(as they do no empirical research but rely on out of date 50 year old unproven theories)
Edit : they clearly don't understand O level Physics.

 

[Poly Hive]

Some reading for those with an interest in over wintering.

http://-----------------/damp-condensation-and-ventilation-brood-rearing-in-the-winter-cluster/

That is the link to part one and using the front page search function and entering "damp and winter" will bring up the rest.

PH

 

[user 6228]

We have a long way to go ... Bill Bielby got it right in 1972 'You can never have too much insulation' and quoting from Free & Simpson "The higher the rate of heat loss from the hive,the more food will have to be consumed to generate heat to replace heat lost. " ...

and that extra food consumed creates extra water vapour

I missed reference off the previous post

Linden, P. F. (1999). THE FLUID MECHANICS OF NATURAL VENTILATION. In annual review of fluid mechanics (pp. 201–238). http://doi.org/0066-4189/99/0115-0201

 

[Amari]

I am far from an expert but i would rather read the Sunday Sport than the BBKA magazine, i got a few given a while back and i only managed to have a quick flick through them before throwing them in the bin after reading a bit on winter preparation, in the article it stated that the crown board needed to be raised on match sticks which i know is a load of rubbish.
All the information anyone needs is on this Forum.

On a more positive note: could we persuade DerekM to write an article for BBKA News expressing the contrary view?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

On a more positive note: could we persuade DerekM to write an article for BBKA News expressing the contrary view?

Hmmm - we haven't had a good witch burning in this country for quite a while.

 

[user 6228]

Hmmm - we haven't had a good witch burning in this country for quite a while.

Which country are you referring to : you are in wales , he is in Scotland, and I'm in England.