Hive Building?

[ugcheleuce]

As a latecomer to this thread...

As long as the bees themselves are catered for, that would be my only concern initially.

Put the bees in a box and put the box somewhere, and the bees are "catered for". But without knowledge about bees and beekeeping, you won't be able to prevent the bees from escaping, and you won't be able to protect them against illness or calamity, and you won't know how to make more bees.

Are training courses absolutely essential, or are they a nice optional extra?

It doesn't matter where you get your knowledge from (books or courses). And you can see how beekeepers handle bees by watching Youtube films.

I like trial and error, as I do not believe that there is only one way to do something. Many different ways can yield equally effective results and I would like to discover my own way without being shown.

You can do this with beekeeping, if you have years and years for your "trial and error", and lots of money to buy new bees whenever your old bees die.

The problem with trial and error for bees is that the effect of anything you do won't become visible until the next generation of bees, which is 2-3 months later, and unless you experiment with a large number of colonies, you won't know whether what you've done produced the result, or if the result was simply what would normally have happened anyway.

If you're worried that going to a course might box you in to a certain dogma, try going to a different newbie course every year for a couple of years. I've done that two years in a row, and I learnt a lot from the second course that I didn't learn from the first one, but I also learnt a lot from the first course that I didn't learn from the second one.

==

With regards to the Varroa mite, I intend to make regular inspections.

How?

I was planning on not treating for Varroa unless it reared its ugly head.

The problem with varroa is that by the time it "rears" its head, it's typically too late for you to do anything. Also, if the colony suffers damage due to mistreatment, it takes several generations of bees to recover from it, by which time the year may be over.

I have also read that immunity can be built up and therefore it wouldn't be effective when it was actually needed if treated for unnecessarily...

Immunity (if we can use that word) builds up over several generations of queens (not generations of bees, i.e. over several years and not over several months), and immunity can be shattered if your queen mates with the wrong males. So this "immunity" applies only to queen breeders and to isolated colonies in the wild.

When beekeepers say that bees have become "immune" to varroa, they don't mean "immune" in the normal sense of the word. Dogs can become immune to a number of diseases, but they can't become immune to fleas. Some dog breeds may be less susceptible to fleas, but... given enough fleas, and the right conditions, all dogs will suffer, even breeds that are "more immune" to fleas. The same applies to bees. Varroa is not a disease. Varroa on bees is like fleas on a dog.

==

Oh, after reading Jenkins' post, I realise that you may have meant that the varroa become immune to the treatments, not that the bees become immune to the varroa. Is that right? Well, then I agree with what Jenkins said.

Besides, if mites become immune to a certain treatment, then that immunity applies to all mites in the region/country, and not using the treatment on your own bees won't prevent your mites from becoming immune. Remember, mites regularly migrate between colonies (on the backs of bees, and bees sometimes visit other hives).

 

[itma]

...
It doesn't matter where you get your knowledge from (books or courses). And you can see how beekeepers handle bees by watching Youtube films.
...

I disagree.

The essential for a beginner (and especially for a beginner with preconceived notions) is the interactivity of a face-to-face class.
It can unearth and rectify some very basic misapprehensions.

Similarly with YouTube. The danger is that the beginner might not spot the unintended comedy and (quite mistakenly) think that any random redneck was 'authoritative' instead of being an object lesson in "what not to do".
There's a lot of real dross, and only a few real nuggets.
Someone linked a lovely one the other day about lighting a smoker ...

 

[peteinwilts]

It is interesting how attitudes change.

I arrived on this forum a few years ago with little knowledge, limited bee handling (from 30 years ago), and a good size plot of land, and it was suggested 'if you can get bees, go for it. You will learn on the job!'

I took the advice. Most of my knowledge came from this forum , and scouring the internet. The path was far from straight, and I made mistakes, but none that cost me my bees or my health. My hive building has been straightforward, and apart from a couple of slight errors, and small design changes, I have happily built 86 hives and 20 NUC's.

Now the current advice is to do a course. (which is very good advice). However, a course is only as good as the person running it. My brother has a bee hive and I suggested he did a course for his first year. He learnt a lot, but some of the stuff he learnt was extremely subjective and taught 'as a matter of fact' (it was a BBKA course!).

Like all clubs\associations, you will have good ones and bad ones, and worse than bad ones. You have to run your luck.
Advice (including on here), can be good, bad or worse than bad.

I would suggest you gather as much information, advice and knowledge (conflicting or otherwise, including stickys and old posts), and try and understand the logic behind it. Some questions can have multiple correct answers.
Understanding 'why' is as important than understanding 'how'.

For the first year, keep it simple. basic beekeeping is not difficult or anything to be afraid of. A bad allergy is rare, but not unheard of. Overwintered bees give more powerful stings than non-overwintered bees, and where you are stung can also alter the effect.

 

[ugcheleuce]

The essential for a beginner (and especially for a beginner with preconceived notions) is the interactivity of a face-to-face class.

Having been on two separate beginner courses myself (though that does not make me an expert), my impression is that you'll learn nothing more at face-to-face classes than you can by watching beekeeping classes on Youtube (make sure they're classes offered by clubs, not by other beginner beekeepers who just want to make videos about something).

The only advantage of a face-to-face course is hearing the questions asked by others, and perhaps being able to ask some questions yourself, and having them answered by an expert whom you can see.

A possible further advantage of face-to-face courses is that they often include practical sessions... but you can get practical experience by going along with any beekeeper, and you can see bees on Youtube films.

Oh, I suppose a futher advantage of face-to-face courses is that it forces you to stick to your learning schedule (you pay money for it, and people expect that you show up), which is more difficult with just a book.

Similarly with YouTube. The danger is that the beginner might not spot the unintended comedy and (quite mistakenly) think that any random redneck was 'authoritative' instead of being an object lesson in "what not to do".

That is true, but perhaps I should have qualified my advice about Youtube: unless it's a video by a beekeeping club, turn the volume down all the way. Learn by watching the bees, not by listening to the stories and theories of the videographer.

There's a lot of real dross, and only a few real nuggets.

I agree.

 

[LJH]

It is interesting how attitudes change.

I arrived on this forum a few years ago with little knowledge, limited bee handling (from 30 years ago), and a good size plot of land, and it was suggested 'if you can get bees, go for it. You will learn on the job!'

I took the advice. Most of my knowledge came from this forum , and scouring the internet. The path was far from straight, and I made mistakes, but none that cost me my bees or my health. My hive building has been straightforward, and apart from a couple of slight errors, and small design changes, I have happily built 86 hives and 20 NUC's.

Now the current advice is to do a course. (which is very good advice). However, a course is only as good as the person running it. My brother has a bee hive and I suggested he did a course for his first year. He learnt a lot, but some of the stuff he learnt was extremely subjective and taught 'as a matter of fact' (it was a BBKA course!).

Like all clubs\associations, you will have good ones and bad ones, and worse than bad ones. You have to run your luck.
Advice (including on here), can be good, bad or worse than bad.

I would suggest you gather as much information, advice and knowledge (conflicting or otherwise, including stickys and old posts), and try and understand the logic behind it. Some questions can have multiple correct answers.
Understanding 'why' is as important than understanding 'how'.

For the first year, keep it simple. basic beekeeping is not difficult or anything to be afraid of. A bad allergy is rare, but not unheard of. Overwintered bees give more powerful stings than non-overwintered bees, and where you are stung can also alter the effect.

Thank you very much for this constructive, non patronising advice. It's very much welcomed and greatly appreciated! I can undrstand the benefits of even a very short course if it is a well organised and informative event, but it cannot be impossible to keep bees successfully without a course. I'm not looking for massive honey yeilds, and if they fly away then they fly away and it won't be the end of the world
There is far more accessable information and advice available now than there was when you began beekeeping all that time ago, and by your own admittance you didn't come to any harm.
Thanks again, much appreciated.

 

[Madge]

... Overwintered bees give more powerful stings than non-overwintered bees ...

Is that so? I've never heard of it or experienced it (talk about conflicting advice and opinions ...). As far as I know all honey-bee stings are alike - not even Apis mellifera scutellata's stings are more powerful than European honey-bee stings - just more plentiful once they get started.
Kitta

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

not even Apis mellifera scutellata's stings are more powerful than European honey-bee stings

just more plentiful once they get started.
Kitta

And even that's not always the case

 

[BeeJayBee]

I can undrstand the benefits of even a very short course if it is a well organised and informative event, but it cannot be impossible to keep bees successfully without a course.

A well run course is worth every penny but some, like the one I paid for, are a waste of time, money and effort. I learned nothing new, and never saw a live bee.

That came later at, so-called apiary training. Most of the sessions were cancelled for various reasons, were never rescheduled, and those that went ahead were not much use because we weren't allowed to do anything and were shown none of the skills contained in the B8KA syllabus.

It is a good idea to join an association or beekeeping club. It doesn't matter too much whether it's affiliated to B8KA or the Natural lot, both will bring you into contact with other beekeepers who will talk things through with you, and who can give you a hand if you need it, and most will have meetings and talks from which you can learn a lot.

. I'm not looking for massive honey yeilds, and if they fly away then they fly away and it won't be the end of the world

If your bees fly away they may end up being collected by a rather frazzled swarm collector. Best to try to use a viable method of swarm control, not all are complicated to do.

If you make your own boxes, apart from checking the internal spacing is correct, you really do need to make sure all the joints are bee-tight, otherwise they're guaranteed to use a tiny gap as an entrance - not the larger gap you want them to use.

 

[itma]

... it cannot be impossible to keep bees successfully without a course. I'm not looking for massive honey yeilds, and if they fly away then they fly away and it won't be the end of the world
...

1/ Its not a matter of "impossible" - its a matter of what is much simpler and with a higher probability of success, a lower probability of failure.

2/ If they "fly away" (which they tend to do en masse - "swarming"), do you think they might bother anyone else? One of the beekeeper's other responsibilities is to the public.


The important part of a course is the interactivity. Seeing how others see things.
Nobody is saying that every course, per se, is necessarily wonderful.
But what it should do is to put the things you know in context, and allow you to recognise the things you didn't know that you didn't know.
I offer the analogy of a headlight, shining in exactly the direction you are looking and therefore offering a somewhat 2D view. Get some other lights (however dim!) from different directions and light gets cast into holes that you didn't even realise were holes.



As it is, you are leaving it rather late to get onto a course this winter.
What you should do, ASAP, is to make contact with (and potentially join) your local Association(s). Membership is (I believe invariably) based around a fixed membership year -- it won't cost less or last longer if you postpone joining until halfway through the year. "Full" membership includes insurances (etc) and is appropriate if you plan to acquire bees during the year. The much cheaper "Associate" membership is more appropriate if you don't.

Get along to some meetings and discuss your ideas in person. Offer your services as an apprentice, and ASAP (March/April?) get close to some real bees.

 

[user 6228]

1/ Its not a matter of "impossible" - its a matter of what is much simpler and with a higher probability of success, a lower probability of failure.
.

it does of course depend on the base material i.e. the aspirant bee keeper
they may the sort of person who need to do the "courses" to feel confident.
or then may be completely the other way i.e. a devout and often successful autodidact.

A good taster day, where you get to see the kit and handle the bees with some good lectures, could be suffiicient for some to get started with the bees, who then may top up with courses later, should they feel the need.

But then some might require consirable formal training to get going.

Get it wrong and you get stung

but then you get stung anyway

 

[peteinwilts]

Is that so? I've never heard of it or experienced it (talk about conflicting advice and opinions ...). As far as I know all honey-bee stings are alike - not even Apis mellifera scutellata's stings are more powerful than European honey-bee stings - just more plentiful once they get started.
Kitta

I am sure I have read it in more than one place, but cannot recall where. It is not impossible I imagined it (I am happy to admit it if I am wrong!)

My worst mass stinging incident was whilst collecting a particularly nasty swarm. The girls found a 'strategic' hole and marched in. After one or two stings (which I thought were through the suit), a number began walking up the inside of the veil. By the end of it, I had 27 proper stings, and hundreds of pinpricks where the lancet had not taken. The armpit sting was the worst, but all were gone in a few weeks.

My worst single sting was from an elderly overwintered bee. It stung through my leather glove on to the back of the hand. The lump did not disappear for about 8 or 9 months.

It was these experiences that reinforced my imagined(?) reading.

Perhaps, older winter bees that are being replaced by young spring bees are more 'gung-ho', which is why the stings appear to be worse? (this may also be imagination! )

Would be interested to know for sure though.

 

[Swarm]

It is interesting how attitudes change.

I arrived on this forum a few years ago with little knowledge, limited bee handling (from 30 years ago), and a good size plot of land, and it was suggested 'if you can get bees, go for it. You will learn on the job!'

I took the advice. Most of my knowledge came from this forum , and scouring the internet. The path was far from straight, and I made mistakes, but none that cost me my bees or my health. My hive building has been straightforward, and apart from a couple of slight errors, and small design changes, I have happily built 86 hives and 20 NUC's.

Now the current advice is to do a course. (which is very good advice). However, a course is only as good as the person running it. My brother has a bee hive and I suggested he did a course for his first year. He learnt a lot, but some of the stuff he learnt was extremely subjective and taught 'as a matter of fact' (it was a BBKA course!).

Like all clubs\associations, you will have good ones and bad ones, and worse than bad ones. You have to run your luck.
Advice (including on here), can be good, bad or worse than bad.

I would suggest you gather as much information, advice and knowledge (conflicting or otherwise, including stickys and old posts), and try and understand the logic behind it. Some questions can have multiple correct answers.
Understanding 'why' is as important than understanding 'how'.

For the first year, keep it simple. basic beekeeping is not difficult or anything to be afraid of. A bad allergy is rare, but not unheard of. Overwintered bees give more powerful stings than non-overwintered bees, and where you are stung can also alter the effect.

I tend to agree, courses can offer a good experience or they may not and I'd be less than happy if I paid out and found myself on a course monopolised by 'that person' who just will not shut up and listen or allow others to join in. We've all seen them, they've read a book or two, consider themselves a little more than a beginner because they can quote verbatim and tend to take over. Cases like that can ruin the course for others.
I think it's quite possible to successfully keep bees without a course and working with a beekeeper for a couple of seasons and once you have your own bees is probably a better option for some.

 

[LJH]

Such a variety of opinions...

Thanks all for the advice

 

[Edwardking]

I did the beginners course at Blagdon Association - it was terrific, great value and rich in content. The extra benefit was meeting other beginners and also more experienced beeks who readily shared ideas, how they solved problems, advice, tips and support. Then we had sessions at the apiary that included talks and demonstrations, and now, those who wish, have got mentors to see us through the first years. Really worthwhile time invested and my bees are healthier as a result.

 

[madasafish]

I decided to start beekeeping in Spetember 2009.

I read every book I could obtain over that winter - mainly from our library...(50p to order one).

Wen to to our local Association apiary from March 2010 to ensure I could stand bees,
Built a topbar hive in April.
Got bees end April.

But then I was retired and had plenty of time...

 

[beeno]

Hi all,
Sorry folks, I am so tired of hearing that if you want to become a beekeeper then you need, ought to or must do an introductory beekeeping course. We don't all learn or want to learn the same way. A dedicated self-starter is going to be a much better beek than someone that does a one day course and thinks that's it. Beekeeping requires continuous learning to be 'successful' and enjoyable, how you do it is not important.

 

[peteinwilts]

Hi all,
Sorry folks, I am so tired of hearing that if you want to become a beekeeper then you need, ought to or must do an introductory beekeeping course. We don't all learn or want to learn the same way. A dedicated self-starter is going to be a much better beek than someone that does a one day course and thinks that's it. Beekeeping requires continuous learning to be 'successful' and enjoyable, how you do it is not important.

I am not tired of hearing it, as the purpose of the forum is to debate, agreement\disagreement and learn about other peoples views and experiences (I sometimes think the forum is being BBKA'd! If you look at the traffic on their forum you will see why it is not such a good thing!)

...but agree with the sentiment. there is more than one route to reach a destination.

 

[Cazza]

Hi all,
Sorry folks, I am so tired of hearing that if you want to become a beekeeper then you need, ought to or must do an introductory beekeeping course. We don't all learn or want to learn the same way. A dedicated self-starter is going to be a much better beek than someone that does a one day course and thinks that's it. Beekeeping requires continuous learning to be 'successful' and enjoyable, how you do it is not important.

Well I for one never did. I think I know what I'm doing!
Cazza

 

[peteinwilts]

Well I for one never did. I think I know what I'm doing!
Cazza

for the ancient beekeepers , has courses always been popular, or has it only just been recently? (cashing in on the media frenzy).

 

[Nige.Coll]

Without knowing the person it's impossible to know how they will get on.

Everyone is different but getting a look inside a hive and handling bees is better than standing at an open hive thinking what now.

I found the 6 week course I did a great start but I've met some new beekeepers that have done a course in a classroom and got a nice diploma that couldn't tell the difference between stores and brood.

If a course isn't what someone wants then fine, not like the bee police are going to come round, but it was the best thing I did.
People said start with a nuc but I ignored that and started with 2 full colonies. Some would say that was wrong.

It's the same as anything to do with beekeeping ask two beeks the same question and get 3 answers.

Can only give an opinion based on our own experience really.