Hi all, advice please

[Timbeez]

Swarm that arrived in a swarm trap, please see pics attached, scrutinise and see if you can see a small queen, it would appear what shes laid they’ve produced QCs no other stages of brood.
Thoughts please,
1, knock all but one down
2, use QCs and make A couple of nucs up from Stronger hives
3 let them run their course
Just not sure which way to go with this it’s a first for me Thanks in advance

 

[Ian123]

Hi firstly those cells don’t look right I’d suspect they’re not viable. Are all those cells around them drone brood, it’s hard to tell with the photos.
How come there’s so few bees on the frame?

 

[pargyle]

When did the swarm arrive ? I can't see any eggs ... is it possible that what you have is a caste and the virgin has not started to lay yet ? Queen cells could be a panic measure but as Ian says ... they don't look right and without eggs they are not viable.

Looks a bit like queen here:

 

[Timbeez]

Hi firstly those cells don’t look right I’d suspect they’re not viable. Are all those cells around them drone brood, it’s hard to tell with the photos.
How come there’s so few bees on the frame?

Nuc rammed, I shook bees off, there are a few capped brood and drone, no eggs or larva present on any of the remains frames, I wasn’t sure at first glance whether this was a small queen, what would you do if hey were yours

 

[Antipodes]

Nuc rammed, I shook bees off, there are a few capped brood and drone, no eggs or larva present on any of the remains frames, I wasn’t sure at first glance whether this was a small queen, what would you do if hey were yours

That doesn't look like a queen from that photo. Possibly an old worker?
I wonder if there was a old queen with the swarm that laid for a bit and then died causing emergency queen cell raising?
I'm not convinced that they are unviable but cut one sealed queen cell out of the comb and bring it inside to open it up and view and photograph the grub (if any).
Post the photo here.

 

[JamezF]

I'm not convinced it's a queen either.

I think it's possible that EQCs could be raised using larvae in a timescale that would allow what you're seeing to be "normal" if the queen was injured or died suddenly. Opening one of the cells up to see what's inside certainly seems like a good idea before deciding on the appropriate course of action.

James

 

[Timbeez]

That doesn't look like a queen from that photo. Possibly an old worker?
I wonder if there was a old queen with the swarm that laid for a bit and then died causing emergency queen cell raising?
I'm not convinced that they are unviable but cut one sealed queen cell out of the comb and bring it inside to open it up and view and photograph the grub (if any).
Post the photo here.

 

[Timbeez]

thanks, i will post pics tomorrow, they look viable, if they are, I have two hives on double brood which are rammed, I will make a couple of nucs

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Nuc rammed, I shook bees off, there are a few capped brood and drone, no eggs or larva present on any of the remains frames, I wasn’t sure at first glance whether this was a small queen, what would you do if hey were yours

If you shook bees off a frame with queen cells it's highly likely you've damaged any potential pupating queen anyway. I'd suggest you cut your losses and shake the bees out.

 

[Timbeez]

Hi Antipodes, please find attached pics

 

[Timbeez]

If you shook bees off a frame with queen cells it's highly likely you've damaged any potential pupating queen anyway. I'd suggest you cut your losses and shake the bees out.

Hi John, I once read if you shake frames upside down you don’t detach the larva from the Royal Jelly, not sure whether that’s a myth now then

 

[Antipodes]

Hi Antipodes, please find attached pics

Hi Tim,
I was hoping for something inside that was more obviously a developing queen, but in any case, I think those cells in your first picture look ok and they look like emergency queen cells. I think you will have queens emerging before too long (it looks like there is a bit of capped worker brood in one of your first photos too). Rather than remove all cells but one and in order to lessen the risk of a swarm, I have placed a queen excluder under the brood area (only for a few days) to allow the first queen to emerge and for her and/or the workers to sort out any other cells and queens. You should be able to get the timing pretty accurate going by the date the cells were capped and the size of that grub. One problem with you trying to choose a cell is that it might be a dud.

 

[pargyle]

Hi Antipodes, please find attached pics

Hmmm ... that looks a good one then !

 

[The Poot]

When did the swarm arrive ? I can't see any eggs ... is it possible that what you have is a caste and the virgin has not started to lay yet ? Queen cells could be a panic measure but as Ian says ... they don't look right and without eggs they are not viable.

Looks a bit like queen here:

I had this once and found a queen that looked very similar to this. She managed a few eggs and several emergency queen cells developed. The queen disappeared once a new queen was raised and it became a good viable colony.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

looks like a doomed colony to me.

 

[Timbeez]

Hi Tim,
I was hoping for something inside that was more obviously a developing queen, but in any case, I think those cells in your first picture look ok and they look like emergency queen cells. I think you will have queens emerging before too long (it looks like there is a bit of capped worker brood in one of your first photos too). Rather than remove all cells but one and in order to lessen the risk of a swarm, I have placed a queen excluder under the brood area (only for a few days) to allow the first queen to emerge and for her and/or the workers to sort out any other cells and queens. You should be able to get the timing pretty accurate going by the date the cells were capped and the size of that grub. One problem with you trying to choose a cell is that it might be a dud.

Hi Ant, thanks for your reply and advice, whilst on the subject of the QCs I’ve just inspected hive 6 double brood box, first brood all stages super calm, went to inspect low box, OMG super aggressive proper attack mode, even following me after I reassembled hive, not tolerating that, I have located queen in lower brood box and kept her there with queen excluder, I am considering doing a split, killing queen and using two of the EQC from the Nuc and edging my bets as there are 7-9 QC will pick the better looking ones, your thoughts. Tim

 

[Timbeez]

looks like a doomed colony to me.

Hi Jen, what would you do in this situation then ??

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

shake them all out.

 

[Newbeeneil]

Hi John, I once read if you shake frames upside down you don’t detach the larva from the Royal Jelly, not sure whether that’s a myth now then

I hold the frame by one lug and give the back of my fist a hard wrap. The force goes across the frame and doesn’t shake the lavae out of the royal jelly.

 

[Antipodes]

Hi Ant, thanks for your reply and advice, whilst on the subject of the QCs I’ve just inspected hive 6 double brood box, first brood all stages super calm, went to inspect low box, OMG super aggressive proper attack mode, even following me after I reassembled hive, not tolerating that, I have located queen in lower brood box and kept her there with queen excluder, I am considering doing a split, killing queen and using two of the EQC from the Nuc and edging my bets as there are 7-9 QC will pick the better looking ones, your thoughts. Tim

You could try that. I've found they can be tricky to cut out without damaging them and can also be prone to chilling through the whole process (especially around the age that they are). Also, finding and killing a queen in a very defensive colony and adding in queen cells to it it is a bit of a daunting prospect.
Having said this, you have the perfect number of colonies to experiment in the way you propose. For me, learning and experimentation is a significant part of enjoying beekeeping. Down the track, with more colonies, you might make different decisions.

One thing you've done already is establish the age of that queen cell and therefore can more successfully work out when the best time might be to put in a queen excluder or cut out and move cells. Have a look at the diagram in this link (scroll down through it a bit). I reckon you are on about day 10 when you opened that one up? What do you think?

https://theapiarist.org/queen-cells-dont-panic/