Help with oxalic acid

[Hivemaker.]

i know every one else seem to do it.

I don't.

 

[itma]

I don't.

But then, you aren't one of those "3 hive owners" are you?

 

[farbee]

Is that the anhydride or dihydride?

You mean anhydrous or hydrated. It is the hydrated form.
Anhydrous means no water of crystalisation.
Anhydride is something else altogether.

 

[Finman]

Is that the anhydride or dihydride?

Funny question. Like Nanetti, the inventor of trickling, never makes difference between de, di, an or something like that. It is mere oxalic acid.

In original trickling recipe dosage to one box beehive was 30 ml/hive. Englishmen use 50 ml.
It is 67% extra syrup on bees.

And like Nanetti says, first 50 ml was meant to Dadant frame size.
http://www.apimondia.com/apiacta/articles/2003/nanetti.pdf

in dihydrid oxalic acid mole weight is 40% bigger than in mole, which has not those 2 water molecules.

In German study key word was mentioned: oxalic acid dihydrate
http://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/ref/2006/01/M6010/M6010.html

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Funny question. Like Nanetti, the inventor of trickling, never makes difference between de, di, an or something like that. It is mere oxalic acid.

In original trickling recipe dosage to one box beehive was 30 ml/hive. Englishmen use 50 ml.
It is 67% extra syrup on bees.

And like Nanetti says, first 50 ml was meant to Dadant frame size.
http://www.apimondia.com/apiacta/articles/2003/nanetti.pdf

in dihydrid oxalic acid mole weight is 40% bigger than in mole, which has not those 2 water molecules.

In German study key word was mentioned: oxalic acid dihydrate
http://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/ref/2006/01/M6010/M6010.html

Is 5ml a seam not an internatinoal standard?

 

[Finman]

Is 5ml a seam not an internatinoal standard?

It is in douple brood wintering hives of Langstroth

In one box hive it is less according EU Varroa Group, which gove those recipes to the world.





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[farbee]

Funny question. Like Nanetti, the inventor of trickling, never makes difference between de, di, an or something like that. It is mere oxalic acid.

In original trickling recipe dosage to one box beehive was 30 ml/hive. Englishmen use 50 ml.
It is 67% extra syrup on bees.

And like Nanetti says, first 50 ml was meant to Dadant frame size.
http://www.apimondia.com/apiacta/articles/2003/nanetti.pdf

in dihydrid oxalic acid mole weight is 40% bigger than in mole, which has not those 2 water molecules.

In German study key word was mentioned: oxalic acid dihydrate
http://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/ref/2006/01/M6010/M6010.html

It will affect the final concentration as the molecular weight is different. If you weigh out same number of grams of oxalic acid anhydrous it will contain a different number of molecules or mole of the actual oxalic acid (C2O4H2) than if you weigh out same mass of oxalic acid dihydrate (C2O4H2.2H2O).
I think in reality all the stuff we buy is the later and the numbers are worked out on this. If anyone is interested I will crunch the numbers.

 

[Dared]

YOu get as good result when you trickle oxalic syrup into hives.

100 g water + 100 g sugar + 7.5 g oxalic acid. It is enough to 3 hives.

If you have one box hives, put in ech seam 4 ml syrup.
5 ml is meant to douple brood.

If you are on double brood do you trickle both boxes or just top box, as that is where you would expect most bees to be?

 

[Finman]

If you are on double brood do you trickle both boxes or just top box, as that is where you would expect most bees to be?

So I do.

If I split the boxes, and then I put them back, hundreds of bees will be scueezed between frame bars and burr. - So I do not split-

 

[Finman]

I think in reality all the stuff we buy is the later and the numbers are worked out on this. If anyone is interested I will crunch the numbers.

Reality is that you buy oxalic acid and use it according the formula and it works.

In this forum guys try to be smart, in every corner but they have never read the origoinal papers what is there. I have fighted against this many many years. And even numbers have been happily changed to what ever.

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[Finman]

It will affect the final concentration as the molecular weight is different. .

It does, but "official " range of percents are so wide that you do well without counting.

IN papers dihydride is used. It is practical because anhydride tend to take water from air.

If you use anhydride, it does not harm. Syrup is just stronger.

Switzerland uses the lightest syrup 2,8% and it works almost as well as 3,5%. Italy recommends 4.2%.
Actually difference between these numbers is not big.


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[drstitson]

"Switzerland uses the lightest syrup 2,8% and it works almost as well as 3,5%. Italy recommends 4.2%.
Actually difference between these numbers is not big."

as well as the apparent different %s recommended according to latitude one mustn't forget that the italian dosing schedule is aimed at the ubiquitous Dadant Blatt hive (jumbo LS equivalent; larger frame area than national brood and a half), so each treated seam of bees is potentially larger/more populous.

 

[Finman]

as well as the apparent different %s recommended according to latitude one mustn't forget that the italian dosing schedule is aimed at the ubiquitous Dadant Blatt hive (jumbo LS equivalent; larger frame area than national brood and a half), so each treated seam of bees is potentially larger/more populous.

I have not seen those calculations.

Original EU varroa group arvices are meant to langstroth box and to douple.
These are only which have been mentioned.

Everyone should look and think first, how much the hive has bees and then trickle.

It is said too, that look at the totally occupied seam. Then the dosage is 3 or 5 ml.

But in practice in my hives the cluster is often 2 stores high from bottom to second box entrance. How to get syrup inside the cluster?

If there is now bees in the seam, syrup drills to the floor. It is not a big problem.

This year exceptionally clusters were small in my hives in my friend hives. I cannot see them before I splitted the 2-box hives.
And they were extremely tight clusters.

Yeah, it varies...

 

[Finman]

.
And loot at that from Ireland y 2010:

5. Oxalic acid can be a useful mid winter treatment when there is no brood in the hive.

The recommended dosage of oxalic acid dihydrate for Northern Europe according to the European Group for Integrated Varroa Control, 2000 is 4.5% oxalic acid dihydrate in a sugar water solution (1:1 mixture). Add 45 grams of oxalic acid dihydrate to one litre of the sugar water solution.

Dosage rate is: 20-25 ml on a small colony, 25-30 ml on a medium colony and 30-35 ml on a large colony.

Note: Molecular formula of oxalic acid dihydrate is: C2H2O4.2(H2O), Relative Molecular Mass = 126.06

IT IS ILLEGAL TO DO THIS WITHOUT A PRESCRIPTION FROM A VETERINARY SURGEON WHO IS PREPARED TO USE THE 'CASCADE' METHODOLOGY.


+++++++++++++

That illegal again/still .


Ireland took very early papers from EU Group and got these results. Canada took Swish papers 2010

Procedure is same as in Switzerland but they use 35 g OA in 1:1 syrup.

Many practices are going...

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[farbee]

It does, but "official " range of percents are so wide that you do well without counting.

IN papers dihydride is used. It is practical because anhydride tend to take water from air.

If you use anhydride, it does not harm. Syrup is just stronger.

Switzerland uses the lightest syrup 2,8% and it works almost as well as 3,5%. Italy recommends 4.2%.
Actually difference between these numbers is not big.


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I agree but was just trying to clarify the difference for people.

 

[oliver90owner]

I would like to vape my hives with oxalic acid

Shirley the first thing to do is ascertain whether the treatment would be beneficial to the bees.

Wally wotsisname reckoned it was unnecessary in about 90% of cases.

Consider why you are doing it. In most cases it will not be to enable the colony to survive the winter.

One might then ask, for that 90% where the treatment is not entirely necessary, why risk the colony by treating in mid-winter, when other treatments at more colony-friendly times could achieve the same result?

Not intending treating, but I may yet change my mind if observations indicate that it is required. That is no different than for the last six or seven years when I have not treated.

Only numpties melt plastic hives, I would think. It does not normally set fire to timber boxes or frames, even with wax in them! But one does need to understand that temperatures in excess of 162 degrees Celsius are involved.

I am not surprised that the thread has morhed from vape to trickle. That is the usual degeneration mode. Just happened at reply number one on this occasion! So not really Tamar valley, unless it has moved to Bedfordshire!

I have a home-machined aluminium bowl which has three diesel glow plugs fitted. Has always worked just as effectively as the expensive bought-in appliances, if very slightly less convenient due to being a little bulkier.

 

[farbee]

If you use anhydride, it does not harm. Syrup is just stronger.

It is anhydrous.
I am pretty sure we are all using the hydrated form so all of this really does not matter.

 

[Finman]

.

The recommended dosage of oxalic acid dihydrate for Northern Europe according to the European Group for Integrated Varroa Control, 2000 is 4.5% oxalic acid dihydrate in a sugar water solution (1:1 mixture). Add 45 grams of oxalic acid dihydrate to one litre of the sugar water solution.
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Lets look more closely this calculation. It is percentage weight/volume. And I change it to W/W

200 g 1:1 syrup is 1,6 dl.

1dl = 125 g..........4.5/125= 3,6% w/w.

So, result is the same as 100g sugar+100g water + 7,5g OA.

WOW, so we see that 4,5% is actually 3,5%

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[jenkinsbrynmair]

I have a home-machined aluminium bowl which has three diesel glow plugs fitted. Has always worked just as effectively as the expensive bought-in appliances, if very slightly less convenient due to being a little bulkier.

Have you tried removing the Landrover RAB, that may help a bit?

 

[itma]

...
I am not surprised that the thread has morhed from vape to trickle. That is the usual degeneration mode. Just happened at reply number one on this occasion! ...

Really, for the 3-hive owner (like the OP), redirecting from DIY vaporisation to trickling at the earliest opportunity is not too soon.

Not "degeneration" at all. Just appropriate assistance.

/// Note also that the OP has been keeping bees for less than one year

Hi to you all, I am new to the forum and beekeeping so be gentle. I have built m first warre hive and collected most of the equipment. Now I'm waiting to find the bees...

(March 2013)


DIY vaporisation is clearly the wrong approach in this situation.