Heat leaks through the hives - insulation index

[Finman]

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out temp when measuring 7.0 C and moderate wind.

I have a heat leaks detector pistol. You get the temp when you point with it.

inner cover temps under insulation

highest temps were 22C. in the corners of inner cover temps may be 15C.

In some hives the inner cover was only 16C and corners 9 C.
It tells that the cluster is near bottom. Or the hive has 2 box and the cluster is down.

I have 7 cm thick piece of foam plastic mattres as cover insulation over 9 mm wood board.

Outer surface of wall leaks

that surprised me. Polyhives' outer wall were minimum 2 degrees above the out temp.
Best were Honey Paradise box walls. It has a 30 mm thick insulation. The temp in the hand hole was 10 C.

Old Nacca hives have half thicknes of the wall. They were clearly warmer than Paradise's thick wall.
However insulation of Nacca hives wall 1,5 cm is equal to 15 cm wood or ply .

conclusions

there is a huge leak via inner cover if it has not a proper insulation. With heat detector you may measure the influnce on insulation layer, how much it leaks.
But 4 walls too leak quite much heat from the hive.

 

[oliver90owner]

Finman,

One question: did you carry out these measurements in the dark? Or perhaps both sides of the hive (in sunlight and in shade) or both windward and leeward sides.

There will be small differences between ambient and surface temperature. You may have noticed a large difference when a dark metal roof is in direct sunlight in the summer!
I would agree with your conclusions re the inner cover, but reserve judgement on the results from the walls.

RAB

 

[drstitson]

perhaps finman could find employment in UK as a local council snooping jobsworth checking on insulation and rebanding homes for council tax!!!!!

 

[Cazza]

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I have a heat leaks detector pistol. You get the temp when you point with it.

inner cover temps under insulation

highest temps were 22C. in the corners of inner cover temps may be 15C.

In some hives the inner cover was only 16C and corners 9 C.
It tells that the cluster is near bottom. Or the hive has 2 box and the cluster is down.

.

I like the idea of easily finding out where the cluster might be in winter. Cunning.
I see a Christmas present coming on.
Thanks Finman, another good post.
Cazza

 

[Finman]

Finman,

One question: did you carry out these measurements in the dark? Or perhaps both sides of the hive (in sunlight and in shade) or both windward and leeward sides.

There will be small differences between ambient and surface temperature. You may have noticed a large difference when a dark metal roof is in direct sunlight in the summer!
I would agree with your conclusions re the inner cover, but reserve judgement on the results from the walls.

RAB

1) I am not that stupid than I am not capable to measure

2) we have not sun here for weeks. I measure the outer wall non wind side and cross wind side. They had not much difference.

3) these results were several degrees different between hives. It depends at leat how full is the hive and where is the cluster.

You not agree ...I just told. You have different hives and diffenrent weather. You may measure your own stuctures.

What I will inspect later is insulation of my inner cover when wind is calm. Temp of out surface of insulating matress and the outer surface. There are material differencies, dense and loose.

 

[Finman]

perhaps finman could find employment in UK as a local council snooping jobsworth checking on insulation and rebanding homes for council tax!!!!!

jeee. It would be a typical council work. I measure and nothing happens after that.
What you do is that you put 2 wool shirts on. But tax collecting. That is fine job. And then council wool shirt tax.

 

[Finman]

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What leaks most in my cottage house


my cottage needs much energy to keep the room warm. I had my ideas, to where the heat escapes, but I did not guess.

It was -20C outside when I measured constructions. The worst were 2 inner doors. Door temp was 6C. Window 14C. The room 20C. Doors have only 3 mm ply in the center "windows". So perhaps 70% of the door area has only 3 mm ply. Outside of inner door temp was -4C.

 

[Skyhook]

Nationals have a 25mm recess between the bottom and top rails. I have wondered about putting 25mm celotwx in here, -sort of hybrid poly hive. Does anyone think this would be good/bad idea? I have a mix of ply and cedar 14 x 12s, with celotex over the crown board.

 

[NoBBy]

Nationals have a 25mm recess between the bottom and top rails. I have wondered about putting 25mm celotwx in here, -sort of hybrid poly hive. Does anyone think this would be good/bad idea? I have a mix of ply and cedar 14 x 12s, with celotex over the crown board.

I have wondered this also.

Finman.

Would be nice to do a comparison with your poly's and wood hive.

 

[Finman]

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I have no bees wintering in wooden hives. I use in summer 3 cm thick wooden boxes.

 

[itma]

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I have a heat leaks detector pistol. You get the temp when you point with it.

These are excellent toys, err... tools.

Mine's a well-used branded item (Raytek), sourced from eBay.

But you can get them new VERY cheaply (from Hong Kong) via eBay.

Don't expect great absolute accuracy (without emissivity corrections, etc)
BUT they are very good for finding hot or cold spots - comparisons.

Try searching eBay for
thermometer (ir, laser,infra) -(baby,ear)     <--- copy and paste that lot into eBay's search
select buy-it-now only, then sort in order of 'price + p&p lowest first'
and you'll see how cheap they can be.
The "pistol" designs start around £9 delivered.
If you're not in a hurry, look through the auctions, now you know the score.

Small tech info point: the 'ratio' is how spot or wide-angle the measurement is. 4:1 is very wide-angle - so general or else get very close. 12:1 is more of a spot measurement (measurement of 1 inch across from 12 inches away, 3 inches across from 3ft...)

Ask for one for Christmas if you haven't got one already.
Fun. (and useful)

 

[user 6228]

I have wondered this also.

Finman.

Would be nice to do a comparison with your poly's and wood hive.

IRC a 40mm poly hive is about 0.7 to 0.8watts per degree centigrade. a 19mm wooden hive is about 5 to 6 watts per degree C. theres a very big difference.

This means a colony can keep the entire hive close to 30C different to ambient in a poly hive but only about 4 degrees different in a wooden hive.

 

[Finman]

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if we think about ventilation via feeding hole, which is just above the cluster,it the worst place the heat to run away.

I measured the upper entrance holes too, but I did not get rised temp. There are behind the hole the frames and the air way out is a complex route.

 

[Nic Rhodes]

what emersivity value do you use for your poly hives Finman?

re thermal imaging, we intend to do wooden and poly hives shortly with a full thermal camera.

 

[oliver90owner]

Nationals have a 25mm recess

Already filled on several of my hives. Stays there permanently. Cannot see that it does any harm at any time and likely does some good some of the time. Only trying to emulate a poly hive, after all.

My timber nucs were also kitted out like that. Still are, but don't use them for over-wintering now I have poly.

RAB

 

[Finman]

what emersivity value do you use for your poly hives Finman?

re thermal imaging, we intend to do wooden and poly hives shortly with a full thermal camera.

i have not never thougt it that way. 23 years ago i bought some boxes. It seemed good. Then I bought more and I noticed that build up was in them so fast that they brought honey so much more that I earned the price back in same year.

In those days the price was high.

The most important is that when migrate my hives alone, poly boxes are so light that I can lift the 2 box hive with hands. It was not possible when I had wooden boxes.

After using them in full scale 20 years I know what they are. Before that I used solid wood boxes like in USA. They consumed 50% more food in winter than poly boxes.

 

[Poly Hive]

If someone can either put up a link or pm me with one I would be grateful for the leak heat tool.

FWIW I weighed an empty poly brood and a nat brood, weight respectively, 3lb and 8.5lb.

PH

 

[Finman]

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You find it from Amazon.com Thermal Leak Detector, 35 pounds.

 

[Skyhook]

Nationals have a 25mm recess

Already filled on several of my hives. Stays there permanently. Cannot see that it does any harm at any time and likely does some good some of the time. Only trying to emulate a poly hive, after all.

My timber nucs were also kitted out like that. Still are, but don't use them for over-wintering now I have poly.

RAB

That's reassuriing. Tucked mine up today- filled the recesses on my 2 weaker hives, not on the stronger hive. All have 50mm celotex over the crownboard.

Fingers now crossed.

.

 

[Finman]

my 2 weaker hives,

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insulating dummy boards and restriction of room is good to weak hives.

I have moved some hives to 4-frame nucs where they have a tight room.