Temps in wintering hive

[Finman]

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I read about condensation chain, how bees sting water from walls. Never seen that.

I want to measure one clustered hive, what are temps

- out temp 0, small rain, snow cover

- top of the cluster 13.5 C

- inner cover temp over cluster 11C

- sidemost frame 7C

- back parts of top bars 5,5C

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[Finman]

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Another double brood hive

Cluster size is 3-4 times that of first hive. Cluster fills almost all top bars. Cluster not tight as in first hive.

- top of cluster 18C, middle
- bees in edges of cluster 11C
- back parts of the hive box 7C
- inner cover 13C at the point of cluster centre

Situation in upper box
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[charlievictorbravo]

Here's a link to a real time temperature measurement arrangement in north Wales - http://emoncms.org/beehive/live

Because of the way the electronics are set up, the super is left on throughout the year. The cluster temperature is measured in the middle of the brood box, whether the cluster is there or not. It's an interesting experiment - pity they don't put a PIR cozy over the hive and see what happens to temperatures.

CVB

 

[Finman]

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Temps on small/moka

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[Finman]

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Temps in smallest hive.

The colony filled month ago 7 frames out of 10.

Cluster was down

Out temp 0C

- top of cluster 8C
- farest corner from cluster inside hive 3C.

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I will put in three such hive 3W heater. It saves lost of bees of cluster.

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[Erichalfbee]

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I read about condensation chain, how bees sting water from walls. Never seen that

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Yes and your answer to that was the bees don’t because they are clustered. What if the bees are not clustered?

 

[Finman]

Yes and your answer to that was the bees don’t because they are clustered. What if the bees are not clustered?

I bet that walls do not have condensation when hive is warm.

And what if.

My bees are clustered 5 months all the time they cannot drink from walls.

Bees need water when they feed larvae. I am not worried what they do inside the hive. Not my business to dream about it.

 

[oliver90owner]

Sucrose plus oxygen is metabolised to water and CO2. Not all of that water needs to be breathed out immediately. When it is, it is a waste product. Honey will contain about 16-18% water. Unless brooding, bees are not likely to require extra water, I would think.

Problems arise in spring during very cold weather, after a warm period which encourages the bees to accelerate brooding. Simple enough?

 

[derekm]

Here's a link to a real time temperature measurement arrangement in north Wales - http://emoncms.org/beehive/live

Because of the way the electronics are set up, the super is left on throughout the year. The cluster temperature is measured in the middle of the brood box, whether the cluster is there or not. It's an interesting experiment - pity they don't put a PIR cozy over the hive and see what happens to temperatures.

CVB

Without detailed information on the exact placement and the hive material it is hard to make much sense of the readings

 

[Anduril]

Without detailed information on the exact placement and the hive material it is hard to make much sense of the readings

https://beemonitor.org/setup/
Will this help

 

[pargyle]

Here's a link to a real time temperature measurement arrangement in north Wales - http://emoncms.org/beehive/live

Because of the way the electronics are set up, the super is left on throughout the year. The cluster temperature is measured in the middle of the brood box, whether the cluster is there or not. It's an interesting experiment - pity they don't put a PIR cozy over the hive and see what happens to temperatures.

CVB

This is very sophisticated ... as you know I conducted a similar but very basic monitoring in my Long Deep Hive which is a super-insulated box. I think they would find that with some insulation the temperature in the centre of the hive would be levelled out and much nearer the consistent 30+ degrees C that the bees seen to prefer. I've proved to myself sufficiently that the bees prefer a warmer environment in the winter and a very steady temperature in the summer - I measured relative humidity as well and most of the time (summer and winter) it was up in the 80+% bracket.

Whilst it is interesting to watch what the bees are doing from a scientific basis it does cost time and money - one of these days I would like to install the same type of monitoring system in a hive and take a look at the relationship between varroa levels and temp/humidity as I think (and I have no solid proof - it's just observational) that colonies that maintain high temps and humidity levels seem to be less prone to high varroa levels and seem to be less prone to disease. The trouble is that in order to do any significant research of value you need to have control colonies and how can you ever be certain that two colonies are going to be the same ? There are so many variables in beekeeping that it's nearly always going to be an impossible task - open to criticism for some aspect of what is done.

DerekM has probably come closest to any real research but even Derek is only looking at the thermodynamics of hives - If you press Derek he will tell you that he too believes there may be a relationship between bee health, varroa and the ability of bees to maintain an environment that they desire ...

Lots of research to do here (not for me - I'm convinced !) but who would finance research that could jeopardise the continued profits of so many companies who make money out of selling panaceas to beekeepers ?

Although the project appears to be continuing - apart from the real time monitoring there appears to be very little current comment on the site so perhaps it's just been left to get on with it ?

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Without detailed information on the exact placement and the hive material it is hard to make much sense of the readings

Derek - the best information is here - https://beemonitor.org/setup/ - but it's not very detailed other than it's a National hive made of wood with a super permanently above the brood box. There's a fair bit about the electronics, none of which I understand.

I have sent you the further information I have in an email.

CVB

 

[Finman]

Without detailed information on the exact placement and the hive material it is hard to make much sense of the readings

IT does not have much meaning. Colony live their own life. Measuring is just a hobby.

And real researchers have measured, what happens on hives on cold weather.

 

[derekm]

Unfortunately temperature monitoring is a bit like a black and white picture it tells you stuff but misses out the detail, that would be picked up in colour. Heat flow information provides the "colour". But that analogy does reflect the true jump in detail because heat flow unlike temperature has direction as well as value.
Honeybees are not fixed to living at one temperature, so heat flow is thing they can manipulate and exploit unseen by the person armed only with the values from a thermometer. If one fixates on temperature you get the simplistic notions about clustering being a solely an external temperature induced behaviour.
This sort of fixation in humans is evidenced by the statement "honeybees dont heat the nest only the cluster.". This statement is justified by some measurements where the internal temperatures in a lower conductance hive were similar to a higher conductance hive.
"honeybees dont heat the nest only the cluster." is statement that gives the message "nothing has changed" or "nothing of interest here" from the authors however, on the contrary the temperatures remaining similar means great changes in heat flow.If true it is direct evidence that the bees are manipulating the the heat flow for some behavioural reason as the temperature could only remain the same if the heat flow was changed.

 

[Finman]

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oh my goodness

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And the bee ball heats the hive. That is sure. From where the hive heat then comes if not from bees.

Heat flow information.......?

 

[coffindodger]

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Temps in smallest hive.
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I will put in three such hive 3W heater. It saves lost of bees of cluster.

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Can you say more about the heater please? Is this something you have done in earlier years?

 

[charlievictorbravo]

This is very sophisticated ... as you know I conducted a similar but very basic monitoring in my Long Deep Hive which is a super-insulated box. I think they would find that with some insulation the temperature in the centre of the hive would be levelled out and much nearer the consistent 30+ degrees C that the bees seen to prefer. I've proved to myself sufficiently that the bees prefer a warmer environment in the winter and a very steady temperature in the summer - I measured relative humidity as well and most of the time (summer and winter) it was up in the 80+% bracket.
........

In his paper Varroa Mite Reproductive Biology (from around 2003) Zachary Huang who is a now a professor at Michigan State University, almost as an aside, stated "If there are ways to artificially increase the hive RH to about 80%, then the varroa mite population will never increase to a damaging level." Unfortunately he did not follow this up on this with any research but it does rather reinforce Pargyle's observation that good insulation leads to higher temperatures leads to increased humidity leads to less Varroa mites. But what would us 4 and 6 hive beekeepers know about such things - except perhaps that with fewer hives we are able to monitor each hive better that somebody with over a 100 hives whose primary interest is weighing the honey crop.

CVB

 

[Finman]

Can you say more about the heater please? Is this something you have done in earlier years?

I have used heaters since 2003

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[Finman]

Unfortunately he did not follow this up on this with any research but it does rather reinforce Pargyle's observation that good insulation leads to higher temperatures leads to increased humidity leads to less Varroa mites.

CVB

There is only one reseach in jungle weather , that varroa.... And moisture...

Pargyles obsevation that mites are less on insulated hives...

In every hive brood temperature is same.

Every colony will die for varroa in insulated hives. That is sure.


Quite strange that forum science...

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[derekm]

In his paper Varroa Mite Reproductive Biology (from around 2003) Zachary Huang who is a now a professor at Michigan State University, almost as an aside, stated "If there are ways to artificially increase the hive RH to about 80%, then the varroa mite population will never increase to a damaging level." Unfortunately he did not follow this up on this with any research but it does rather reinforce Pargyle's observation that good insulation leads to higher temperatures leads to increased humidity leads to less Varroa mites. But what would us 4 and 6 hive beekeepers know about such things - except perhaps that with fewer hives we are able to monitor each hive better that somebody with over a 100 hives whose primary interest is weighing the honey crop.

CVB

Be careful, it is not higher temperatures per se that gives higher humidity, but the lack of temperature differences in the volume and surfaces. This defines the low energy flow environment that inhibits the change of phase allowing water vapour accumulate to saturation level.. Both condensation or vapourisation (change of phase) are associated with an energy flow.
its low heat loss along with vapour barriers that enable high humidity.