Temps in wintering hive

[coffindodger]

I have used heaters since 2003

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Yes, but what are they? For example heater tubes, lamps on boxes, etc. Are they battery powered? Your experience is useful.

 

[Finman]

Yes, but what are they? For example heater tubes, lamps on boxes, etc. Are they battery powered? Your experience is useful.

They are 3 type terrarium heaters. 15 W is maximum.

Cables, pads, infra radiator mats.

With pollen patty feeding heating adds brood rearing 3 fold.

My all hives are on property. I get power from house.

I get again irradiated pollen, and it is nice to feed hives.

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[coffindodger]

Thank you

 

[coffindodger]

Be careful, it is not higher temperatures per se that gives higher humidity, but the lack of temperature differences in the volume and surfaces. This defines the low energy flow environment that inhibits the change of phase allowing water vapour accumulate to saturation level.. Both condensation or vapourisation (change of phase) are associated with an energy flow.
its low heat loss along with vapour barriers that enable high humidity.

This area is very similar to the research that went into the problems of human housing in the 1970s when condensation problems and health risks became the subject of much research. The 'old' remedies were extra ventilation (and heat) in an attempt to keep the RH down, but this often made the problem worse. Today the concensus is to restrict air movement, have 'warm' surfaces and not worry too much about the figure for RH (OK I'm simplifying, but you get the idea). Perhaps the next step in hive monitoring would be, as done in human habitations, to monitor the RH/vapour pressure and the dewpoint?
The reason for greater health and resistance to varroa in higher non-condensing humidities might suggest that the bees could be under stress from mild dehydration, but I can't find any research, only a question raised in American HoneyBee World. Another avenue would be to look at the effects of temperature and humidity on activity. This paper suggests a real effect:
http://jesi.areeo.ac.ir/article_105283_101c31dfa08c6db111a00b770509b88b.pdf

 

[Finman]

The reason for greater health and resistance to varroa in higher non-condensing humidities might suggest that the bees could be under stress from mild dehydration, but I can't find any research, only a question raised in American HoneyBee World. Another avenue would be to look at the effects of temperature and humidity on activity. This paper suggests a real effect:
http://jesi.areeo.ac.ir/article_105283_101c31dfa08c6db111a00b770509b88b.pdf

I do not know any mite control method which is based on humidity of the hive air.

Forget talking about humidity because you cannot control it.


We have big problems in mould formation of public buildings. Numerous schools have closed and many others.


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[user 6228]

I do not know any mite control method which is based on humidity of the hive air.

Forget talking about humidity because you cannot control it.


We have big problems in mould formation of public buildings. Numerous schools have closed and many others.


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No the bees control it, So we should be careful about overriding their control.

Modern Human constructions use a Vapour Control Layer to keep humidty up but not too high for the occupants and the structure... As usual the bees have their own, its called Propolis. It has low permeability upto about 90% RH.

 

[pargyle]

No the bees control it, So we should be careful about overriding their control.

Modern Human constructions use a Vapour Control Layer to keep humidty up but not too high for the occupants and the structure... As usual the bees have their own, its called Propolis. It has low permeability upto about 90% RH.

See.... this all makes sense .. I have 6mm polycarbonate crown boards on my Paynes poly hives ... the bees seal them (almost instantly) to the top of the brood box. I have a super on top with kingspan in it .. there's basically a sealed box with just the mesh floor and a standard bottom entrance. I never see any condensation under the crown board. In that top-sealed box, the bees can control the environment as they see fit, there are no through draughts to thwart their efforts.

It is the same with my LDH.

Finnies theory that bees will eventually die from varroa only holds water if the varroa load cannot be managed by the bees ... if higher humidity affects the ability of varroa to survive/breed then perhaps that's one of the keys as to why some colonies do better than others in terms of the effects of varroa ?

 

[Finman]

This paper suggests a real effect:
http://jesi.areeo.ac.ir/article_105283_101c31dfa08c6db111a00b770509b88b.pdf

But when you look, how the study has been arranged, it does not have much real.

Country is Iran. Not very humid country compared to UK.

Arrangements in laboratory. What hives have such moisture values? 20% humidity. And it was said that bees too started to die.

That experiment has nothing to do with practice.

 

[Finman]

Humidity of the brood nest

http://www.arnia.co.uk/hive-humidity/

During the brood rearing period median levels of humidity in the nest of a healthy strong colony is between 50% and 60%. It is rarely found to be below 40% and above 80%. On a daily basis this value is stable and not correlated to the ambient conditions in a strong colony, whereas in a weak colony it follows the pattern of ambient conditions. During the winter cluster the humidity and temperature patterns are closely correlated with the ambient conditions, with a 1-2 h lag caused by the hive inertia.

For instance raising the humidity from 68% to 87% increases the percentage of brood mummification caused by the chalk brood by 8%.

 

[Finman]

20 years, and still, what to do with that information

High Humidity in the Honey Bee
(Apis mellifera L.) Brood Nest Limits
Reproduction of the Parasitic Mite
Varroa jacobsoni Oud.

That was published 1997

My experiences about wintering in humid places is: If you keep your colonies in humid wintering place, you may loose 50% from your winter cluster. Perhaps By nosema. In cellar, under moist snow heap, under plastic cover

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[Finman]

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Humidity fluctuation in brood nest

2017 research

https://chelifer.de/wp-content/uplo...e-Beehive-by-Means-of-Active-Ventilation-.pdf
How Bees (Apis Mellifera) Reduce Humidity in
the Beehive by Means of Active Ventilation

Humidity in the middle of brood nest can vary from 45% to 65% in few minutes. Ventilating bees is an explanation to this fluctuation.


XXXXXX

These results are almost same what this page informs http://www.arnia.co.uk/hive-humidity/

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[user 6228]

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Humidity fluctuation in brood nest

2017 research

https://chelifer.de/wp-content/uplo...e-Beehive-by-Means-of-Active-Ventilation-.pdf
How Bees (Apis Mellifera) Reduce Humidity in
the Beehive by Means of Active Ventilation

Humidity in the middle of brood nest can vary from 45% to 65% in few minutes. Ventilating bees is an explanation to this fluctuation.


XXXXXX

These results are almost same what this page informs http://www.arnia.co.uk/hive-humidity/

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doesnt really prove alot... except that if you move air about you can change humidity which is known thing in built environments. It restates the trees absord water hypothesis though how they do it through a vapour resistant proproplis layer isnt explained.

 

[Finman]

doesnt really prove alot... except that if you move air about you can change humidity which is known thing in built environments. It restates the trees absord water hypothesis though how they do it through a vapour resistant proproplis layer isnt explained.

What proves...

And no one nurse bees in a tree. Hives do not have vapour resistant propolis layers. And who has measured that propolis is water resistant. I know that it is not.

But it is clear that a wooden hive absorbs condensation and moves it to open Air.

What then? What was the idea . To kill mites or what.

Originally I took some shoots about hive temperature. Everyone can measure his own temperatures if others' measuring is not väli or proper

To measure temperature is not so difficult nowadays.

Huge theories from nothing for no one.

.

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[Finman]

I have wooden inner covers and inner side layers of propolis and wax. However the surface lets moisture go through.

And idea , that poly boxes' inner wall is coverd with propolis, it is not true. I can see it. So simple.

 

[user 6228]

What proves...

And no one nurse bees in a tree. Hives do not have vapour resistant propolis layers. And who has measured that propolis is water resistant. I know that it is not.

But it is clear that a wooden hive absorbs condensation and moves it to open Air.

What then? What was the idea . To kill mites or what.

Originally I took some shoots about hive temperature. Everyone can measure his own temperatures if others' measuring is not väli or proper

To measure temperature is not so difficult nowadays.

Huge theories from nothing for no one.

.

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Do you understand the difference between vapour resistant and water resistant? you post indicates you do not.

 

[Finman]

Do you understand the difference between vapour resistant and water resistant? you post indicates you do not.

Good heavens you. Surely you find all kind of names to the movement of water. Where you need all that wisdom?


I wonder every day, what do you understand about practical beekeeping.
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[Finman]

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Derekm. Here you have terms about moisture in buildings if you need them.
I do not. I do well with bees without those things.


http://www.kuntoarviot.net/files/8047.pdf

http://www.pu-nordic.fi/files/pu-nordic/pdf/PU_Nordic_ Rakennustarvikkeiden_hengittavyys_2014.pdf

http://www.puuinfo.fi/node/1503

 

[MartinL]

Do you understand the difference between vapour resistant and water resistant?

So are you saying that the "smaller particles" of water vapour are unable to pass through, yet larger particles, "liquid Water" can?
Propolis is some kind of Goretex in reverse?

 

[Finman]

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House construction industry is full of water movement terms if you want to use them. At least 20 terms.


I see with my own eyes that the wooden inner cover ( 9 mm) which bees have covered with propolis and wax, it lets water to go through. Same is with wooden walls. Condensation water goes into wood so long that wood is saturated. And if you do not paint the outer wall, rain goes into wood.

That propolis cover theory has been taken from heaven.

And that beehive in a tree trunk is mere fairytale.

Third fairytale is hyperinsulation. No one use such.

To me winter food cost for 9 months is 20 kg sugar and it is 12 €.

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. That was my theory.
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[Finman]

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How I see that water gies through my inner covers?

I have metall sheet roof. In the morning its inner surface is full of water droplets, even in the middle of summer.

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