radiator insulation for hives

[Apiarisnt]

... the biggest killer is condensation and damp

As a newcomer to beekeeping I have read this well known fact and been told this accepted wisdom many times. I have yet to be shown any evidence or research substantiating it.

 

[Apiarisnt]

I see. Thanks for that.

What about these? Are these suitable? Would they be as insulating as Kingspan/Celotex?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-Insulated-Quilts-for-National-Hives-/121204174512

If you take a typical "High quality polyurethane rebond carpet underlay" such as 'Cloud 9 Cumulus' then you are looking at insulation properties close to expanded polystyrene, so again, very roughly two thirds as good as PIR (Kingspan)

 

[Murox]

It takes more energy to heat damp air. To produce energy bees burn fuel (food) . So the cooler and damper it is the more food they consume, and the greater the amount of waste products they have to deal with, so they need even more energy to do that.

Surely all we are trying to do is to create an optimum stable environment that the bees can easily control without expending too much energy whilst allowing them to enjoy their natural state of torpor or semi hibernation? Pretty much what Roger Delon (1919-2007) talked about with the stable climate hive.

 

[Hivemaker.]

whilst allowing them to enjoy their natural state of torpor or semi hibernation?

How are we to know if they enjoy this state of torpor, is there some research you know of which proves they enjoy it?

 

[Murox]

How are we to know if they enjoy this state of torpor, is there some research you know of which proves they enjoy it?

The research about enjoying torpor stems solely from my own experience with the occasional "duvet day" !

My point was of course to do with not disrupting the bees way of doing things too much.

 

[Eyeman]

It takes more energy to heat damp air. To produce energy bees burn fuel (food) . So the cooler and damper it is the more food they consume, and the greater the amount of waste products they have to deal with, so they need even more energy to do that.

Surely all we are trying to do is to create an optimum stable environment that the bees can easily control without expending too much energy whilst allowing them to enjoy their natural state of torpor or semi hibernation? Pretty much what Roger Delon (1919-2007) talked about with the stable climate hive.

How easy it is to get distracted by all this tweeking and fine tuning. Folks I come across keep forgetting the basics- keep them fed and healthy.

 

[john t]

Survive being the key word. As many of us who use poly hives with clear acrylic/perspex can testify, it's rare to see clustering except in extreme cold weather. Usually the bees are quite active and moving around the frames.
As they don't need to produce as much heat, as they would in a cluster, they use far less stores and seem (seem being the operative word) to come out of winter fitter and stronger.
Some call it mollycoddling, I just call it practical beekeeping. I want big strong hives in the spring.

its a well known fact the new materials such as polly hives are far superior compared to wood when we are talking insulation and weight,

however i look at it like this, wood hives are not so well sealed and will also absorb moisture and help regulate the condensation so its a balance from being damp and warm to dry and cool

the question i ask is how warm do our bees need to be ? is it better for them to be cooler and in a tight cluster or wandering about inside the hive ?

getting them through the winter is the main priority and if they can start spring as a strong colony even better

i am for the first time overwintering a few nucs in paynes 6 frame poly nucs, there is quite a lot of condensation on the crown board (pesrpex ) and as this condensation has nowhere to escape im wondering what would be the best way forward to try and reduce it any ideas ?

 

[Hivemaker.]

i am for the first time overwintering a few nucs in paynes 6 frame poly nucs, there is quite a lot of condensation on the crown board (pesrpex ) and as this condensation has nowhere to escape im wondering what would be the best way forward to try and reduce it any ideas ?

One way is to cut the four lugs off the roof with a serrated knife and bond a piece of 50mm thick kingspan/reticel the same size, direct onto the existing roof using wide foil tape as used for the insulation.

 

[Madge]

... wood hives are not so well sealed and will also absorb moisture and help regulate the condensation so its a balance from being damp and warm to dry and cool

...



i am for the first time overwintering a few nucs in paynes 6 frame poly nucs, there is quite a lot of condensation on the crown board (pesrpex ) and as this condensation has nowhere to escape im wondering what would be the best way forward to try and reduce it any ideas ?

Or (following on from Hivemaker), buy an eke (or a super) from Paynes that fits the nuc, and fill with extra insulation. You then also have a space for feeding fondant if necessary.

Damp and warm? In a poly? No. Ive not seen that. As above, provide sufficient insulation above their heads under the roof, and moisture will condense on the colder side walls and simply drip down. The bees won’t be damp.

 

[Poly Hive]

I believe in trying to understand the bees. Mine are in poly as most of you know and where are they clustered? Against two walls in a corner. I think that says a lot really, they are in the warmest area they can find.

In poly they don't cluster as tightly and so whilst they may "waste energy" in wandering around they are also far less likely to die from isolation starvation.

There is just no comparison between good poly units and timber.

PH

 

[john t]

thanks for those suggestions,im not keen on adding additional insulation above on the outside,but it has made me think what may be going on

i had added an eke ,also 1/2" foam sheet on the top bars with the cb on top of the eke,then the roof, the reason being , if i need to add fondant i just place it under the foam,

so the crown board is collecting the condensation as it is the coldest surface, so as you suggest, if i add insulation above their heads and fill the space in the eke, the walls should then become the coolest part and condensation collect on the walls

 

[Poly Hive]

Open mesh floors are meant to be used in conjunction with top insulation. This was researched years ago now yet it seems the penny is yet to drop for many.

I strongly suspect it is the unaware teaching newbies that is carrying this on. Hopefully, the wonderful web will end the ignorance. I live in hope at least.

PH

 

[Beefriendly]

so its a balance from being damp and warm to dry and cool

Poly hives are not particularly damp in winter. Get an odd bit of condensation at the edges away from the bees. If you are seeing lots on the polycarbonate crown-board it suggest that there may not be enough bees. I have a few paynes nucs myself and there is just a little above a frame on one of them not occupied by bees. Where you do see condensation is in the Maismore nucs if you leave the feeder on all winter. The cold polycarbonate insert on the feeder always shows condensation (it's cold and distant from the bees) so not even a worry.

 

[Beefriendly]

In poly they don't cluster as tightly and so whilst they may "waste energy" in wandering around they are also far less likely to die from isolation starvation.

Not wasting energy at all. Normal metabolic activity generates a lot of heat when you have 10,000+ bees inside a hive. They use very little energy (stores) just wandering around. What uses energy and stores is heat generation using thoracic muscles.

 

[Madge]

Open mesh floors are meant to be used in conjunction with top insulation. ...

I keep the inserts in over winter in some exposed apiaries - all poly hives with extra insulation above crown boards. No damp.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Solid floors work well in conjunction with top insulation too.

 

[Beefriendly]

Yup, I have all my inserts in over winter. Can't quite see the logic of insulating the roof and sides and having a floor open to the elements.

 

[For want of a better word]

Yup, I have all my inserts in over winter. Can't quite see the logic of insulating the roof and sides and having a floor open to the elements.

What about ventilation and all the condensation from all the hot air?

Are there really beekeeperers using matchsticks to hold the crownboard up to give a good blast of fresh air???????

Yeghes da

 

[Gilberdyke John]

What about ventilation and all the condensation from all the hot air?

Are there really beekeeperers using matchsticks to hold the crownboard up to give a good blast of fresh air???????

Yeghes da

Quite likely if they don't apply logic

 

[Madge]

What about ventilation and all the condensation from all the hot air?



Are there really beekeeperers using matchsticks to hold the crownboard up to give a good blast of fresh air???????



Yeghes da

No damp - as I’ve already explained above. And no matchsticks either. Just sufficient top insulation.