Haven't inspected my bees for 8 weeks.

[pargyle]

Is there any 'livestock' animal in the UK that requires the sort of over the top licencing and/or qualifications being mooted on this thread.

Gives the impression of snooty, superior beekeepers imho

you'll be banning 2 hive owners next

Keeping just about any livestock in the UK requires registration - even hens if you have more than 50 Hens have to be registered.

All cattle and pigs need to be accounted for ...

It's mainly about traceability and limiting disease but .... we are not far off that with Honeybees. I'd welcome registration and I'm ...

 

[For want of a better word]

Unfortunately, it's not all beeks who are as open and communicative as those who post on here.


I do feel that ALL people who keep bees ( not wishing to offend anyone) should be registered on Beebase... and at least look at the bee diseases information provided for us bee people so kindly by Defra!

 

[pargyle]

Unfortunately, it's not all beeks who are as open and communicative as those who post on here.


I do feel that ALL people who keep bees ( not wishing to offend anyone) should be registered on Beebase... and at least look at the bee diseases information provided for us bee people so kindly by Defra!

It would be a good start ....

 

[BeeJayBee]

Is there any 'livestock' animal in the UK that requires the sort of over the top licencing and/or qualifications being mooted on this thread.

Yes! Check this page https://www.gov.uk/animal-welfare

The Animal Welfare Act (2006) and the European Conventions on Animal Welfare only cover vertebrates, which means that bees, beekeeping and beekeepers are excluded from any regulations, which include

"Making owners and keepers responsible for ensuring that the welfare needs of their animals are met. These include the need:

for a suitable environment (place to live)
for a suitable diet
to exhibit normal behaviour patterns
to be housed with, or apart from, other animals (if applicable)
to be protected from pain, injury, suffering and disease"​

Is there any reason why you do not think bees deserve the same protection as other livestock or pets?

Gives the impression of snooty, superior beekeepers imho

Internet personas aside, I know some of those in the real world. Some may seem snooty and superior, but I doubt I'll ever match their skill or knowledge.

 

[davnig]

Is there any reason why you do not think bees deserve the same protection as other livestock or pets?

I never suggested anything of the sort.

I wonder why they only include vertebrates??

Internet personas aside, I know some of those in the real world. Some may seem snooty and superior, but I doubt I'll ever match their skill or knowledge.

That's not very ambitious and there's no 'seem' about it! Knowledge does not excuse rudeness

 

[user 6228]

I never suggested anything of the sort.

I wonder why they only include vertebrates??



That's not very ambitious and there's no 'seem' about it! Knowledge does not excuse rudeness

the Animal welfare act
Animals to which the Act applies(1)In this Act, except subsections (4) and (5), “animal” means a vertebrate other than man.
(2)Nothing in this Act applies to an animal while it is in its foetal or embryonic form.
(3)The appropriate national authority may by regulations for all or any of the purposes of this Act—
(a)extend the definition of “animal” so as to include invertebrates of any description;
(b)make provision in lieu of subsection (2) as respects any invertebrates included in the definition of “animal”;
(c)amend subsection (2) to extend the application of this Act to an animal from such earlier stage of its development as may be specified in the regulations.
(4)The power under subsection (3)(a) or (c) may only be exercised if the appropriate national authority is satisfied, on the basis of scientific evidence, that animals of the kind concerned are capable of experiencing pain or suffering.
(5)In this section, “vertebrate” means any animal of the Sub-phylum Vertebrata of the Phylum Chordata and “invertebrate” means any animal not of that Sub-phylum

 

[user 6228]

if we get the animal welfare act involved .. then you will get the BBKA or the BFA issuing a code of practice. That code of practice will then almost be a law that must be followed.(almost but not quite)

Compulsorary matchsticks anyone?

 

[BeeJayBee]

Is there any 'livestock' animal in the UK that requires the sort of over the top licencing and/or qualifications being mooted on this thread.

Is there any reason why you do not think bees deserve the same protection as other livestock or pets?

I never suggested anything of the sort.

It's easy to misunderstand or misinterpret the written word. Apologies.

 

[madasafish]

Compulsorary matchsticks anyone?

If I can stick matchsticks where they belong...

 

[Mark Young]

if we get the animal welfare act involved .. then you will get the BBKA or the BFA issuing a code of practice. That code of practice will then almost be a law that must be followed.(almost but not quite)

Compulsorary matchsticks anyone?

Then we get rid of those pesky 'thinking outside the box' types

 

[davnig]

It's easy to misunderstand or misinterpret the written word. Apologies.

thank you

 

[user 6228]

Then we get rid of those pesky 'thinking outside the box' types

I dont know who you mean

 

[Luminos]

Then we get rid of those pesky 'thinking outside the box' types

Or at least those thinking outside the matchbox

 

[DanBee]

The curious thing about EFB that I have just learnt from a very experienced bee inspector, is that a colony can be found to have a few affected cells at one inspection, and then, say ten days later when they return to apply the treatment, there's no sign of it.

Personally, I think it's good to have a look through when your other observations indicate a problem, and definitely when there is an "outbreak" in your area, which you will find out about soon enough, as you get alerted to it, and keep an eye on the colony concerned. If they don't deal with it, as most capable and strong colonies WILL do, there are treatments available, although I would not be happy having a colony limping along that needs that kind of attention in the long run.

The aim of sustainable beekeeping must be to get off the treatment treadmill, and increasing numbers of people are demonstrating that it is possible.

Absolutely, Danbee, but before suspecting anything I would inspect. Make sense?

I've copied your earlier reply at length above because as I read it, you were advising that a colony could "deal with it" (i.e. clear up the transient signs of EFB) with no further action required by the beekeeper.

This is downright bad advice and affects not only that beekeeper but all those around them. Respect the regulations and respect those around you.

I am intrigued as to what external observations would suggest EFB or AFB infection within a colony, and hence a need to inspect.

Icanhopit : I am absolutely certain that the vast majority of beekeepers ( and beeminders, like Heidi, Phill & Co ?) would not know what to suspect, or what to inspect for!

Well, Sir, in that case I am ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO PROVOKE ME.

I totally refute your ill-founded certainties and will not enter into a discussion with anyone trying to open one in the fashion you have! Perfectly outrageous.

To be fair, you said above that you've just learnt some very basic facts about EFB, so I for one would not have assumed that you would know it if you saw it. It is also a sad fact that you have repeatedly professed viewpoints or given advice here, yet when challenged to provide justification or rationale you have backed off. I'm thinking of swarm collection vs. swarm control as the latest, there have been several previous examples...

I find myself of the opinion now that your posts regularly present a "lovely" view of the world, but are somewhere between lacking rationale and downright misguided. No doubt you will assure me (again) that you will explain all this "later"...

This is not a personal attack, but IMHO you are a person who repeatedly gives poor advice wrapped up in a positive outlook. Perhaps a little more knowledge and a little less aspiration would be a better balance?

 

[For want of a better word]

Thanks DANBEE for a balanced reply to criticisms of my posts, that are of course in my own opinion, but may appear to be provocative to some on the fringe of our hobby/ pass time / profession.....

​

 

[sunhivebee]

Daniel, you're once again providing evidence that you have all the aspirations of a "life coach" and it would appear that you feel qualified to be mine. Be assured, this is unwarranted.

But lest you should try and misrepresent my views on EFB: There is little indeed one can deduce from external observation. I will now not expostulate on the minutiae of EFB affected larval appearance, as anyone interested can look that up on the very excellent Fera and other websites. There is absolutely no need to state the blindingly obvious fact that a shrivelled larva can only be seen on the comb and not by external observation. Do you really need to waste my time by raising such a point. Do you seriously consider me am imbecile?

However, regular and patient colony observation (from outside) will contribute majorly to alerting the conscientious beekeepers to any changes in colony status, and the decision to inspect may then be taken, as the case may be. This, you will agree, will happen in total and blissful independence of that particular beekeepers worldview.

I get easily tired of people attempting to twist the meaning of any posts of mine, and you personally excel at that, so please keep this in mind when next starting a little moan about my not responding. To the case in point: I did not suggest or advise anyone that bee colonies sort out EFB themselves. I quoted what someone else reasonably qualified in the subject told me. As for the science on the subject, why don't you read it, there is plenty of it. And regarding the legal situation, I am perfectly aware of that, even if people of your ilk would much prefer that I was not, as your main interest appears to be to discredit low-interference beekeeping. Please do not waste your valuable time in this way. It's perfectly unworthy, and useless to boot, as low interference beekeeping is the future of beekeeping.
Please forgive me if I have not adressed all your concerns. I find your homilies regarding my personal style and outlook in matters of bee health rather tedious. Should you develop a genuine interest in the methods and long-term success of low-interference beekeeping in the future, I shall be happy to discuss any points you might wish to raise.

And finally, let me disabuse you of your notion that I see things in a pleasant and easy light, I forget your exact words.

On the contrary, I consider the situation of the bees worldwide and of Nature as a whole extremely serious and am utterly convinced that an urgent examination of how we as human beings go about approaching existential matters like the honeybee, agriculture, and life in all its forms is needed.

 

[sunhivebee]

Thanks DANBEE for a balanced reply to criticisms of my posts, that are of course in my own opinion, but may appear to be provocative to some on the fringe of our hobby/ pass time / profession.....

​

What does "on the fringe" mean, I wonder.

 

[DanBee]

Heidi - good body swerve there, I suppose it comes with practice.

But lest you should try and misrepresent my views on EFB: There is little indeed one can deduce from external observation.

...

However, regular and patient colony observation (from outside) will contribute majorly to alerting the conscientious beekeepers to any changes in colony status, and the decision to inspect may then be taken, as the case may be.

So there is, or there isn't? What specifically would you be looking for in your external observations that would prompt you to inspect for EFB?

I get easily tired of people attempting to twist the meaning of any posts of mine ... To the case in point: I did not suggest or advise anyone that bee colonies sort out EFB themselves.

Personally, I think it's good to have a look through when your other observations indicate a problem, and definitely when there is an "outbreak" in your area, which you will find out about soon enough, as you get alerted to it, and keep an eye on the colony concerned. If they don't deal with it, as most capable and strong colonies WILL do, there are treatments available, although I would not be happy having a colony limping along that needs that kind of attention in the long run.

I don't see how directly quoting you, in context, could be considered "twisting". You advised that colonies with EFB could be left to sort themselves out.

 

[Cie]

You advised that colonies with EFB could be left to sort themselves out.

Ever curious, is there any science to prove that they can or can't sort themselves out?

 

[madasafish]

Ever curious, is there any science to prove that they can or can't sort themselves out?

From Beebase

Control
Ther are three options available to the beekeeper in the UK who has colonies infected with EFB;

The colonies may be treated with the shook swarm husbandry method. In trials conducted by the National Bee Unit showed that Shook swarm is more successful than OTC for the control of EFB in England and Wales. In the Spring following treatment, shaken colonies were three times less likely to test positive for M. plutonius. This finding appears logical since OTC treatment does not remove the etiological agent present in the hive. In contrast, the Shook swarm method provides the bees with M. plutonius-free material. In addition, OTC treated colonies were five times more likely to show recurrence of EFB the following year than Shook swarm treated colonies. A full copy of the project report is also available.
The colonies may be treated with the antibiotic oxytetracycline (OTC, as the formulation Terramycin®).
The colonies may be destroyed, as for AFB. This will be carried out if the colony is too small for other treatment methods, is too heavily infected to respond to treatment, or at the beekeepers request.
https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/beebase/index.cfm?sectionid=70