Getting new frames drawn in super

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coastalbee

New Bee
Joined
Aug 6, 2014
Messages
2
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Location
Suffolk coast
Hive Type
14x12
Number of Hives
1
Has anyone got any suggestions for getting bees into the super and to get them working on drawing the new frames? The brood box (14x12) is getting v congested and the heather flow has started, but they seem very reluctant to get to work in the super. They've put their all into drawing 6 new frames in the brood - perhaps I'm asking too much? If all else fails, could I put a super frame or two into brood for the winter and hope for an ivy flow to set me up for year 2?
 
Yes you could, but I would not leave them there, but put them back into super to encourage bees up. You could leave QE off for a while or spray super frames with light syrup, but the bees will move up when they are ready. What is local forage like? How much?
It is early to be thinking of winter set up. I overwinter on brood and half in General, which is same as a 14x12 for space
 
Has anyone got any suggestions for getting bees into the super and to get them working on drawing the new frames? The brood box (14x12) is getting v congested and the heather flow has started, but they seem very reluctant to get to work in the super. They've put their all into drawing 6 new frames in the brood - perhaps I'm asking too much? If all else fails, could I put a super frame or two into brood for the winter and hope for an ivy flow to set me up for year 2?

They'll do it if they need to..

They're going to fill the brood box with comb brood and honey first.
 
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perhaps I'm asking too much?

yup, you need to learn patience, bees do this when THEY are ready, not when YOUR ready, I've overwintered bees in just a 14x12 BB no feed either

putting a super frame down is counter productive, you'll remove a large 14x12 frame of brood or stores, to insert a 6" frame in, that they would build brace comb from, you'd then remove that and remove the brace comb, replace that 14x12 frame and be back to where you started, as they will only go up when ready
 
They'll do it if they need to..

They're going to fill the brood box with comb brood and honey first.

:iagree:

Never had any problems getting bees up into a super full of foundation then drawing comb - but only when they feel the need to
 
Its bees, so its multifactorial, AND individuals have their own set ways … :)


1/ Bees don't like new. So a new box, with new frames and foundation is UNattractive.
Hence my suggestion of putting such boxes UNDER the brood for a week or two before 'use' so that the enforced bee traffic through the box knocks a bit of newness out of it and makes it more readily accepted.

2/ Its getting a bit late in the season for starting new boxes. Certainly for hoping to get a crop in new boxes. So don't expect too much!
If your brood box isn't fully drawn out, THAT is what you should be concentrating on. It will be needed for stores of course, but before that you want to build the colony numbers as much as possible.
The best insurance going into winter is more bees. (Bees are even more important than stores! You can, if needs be supply extra feed - fondant - before winter ends.)

3/ At this time of year, only look to getting shallow frames drawn AFTER the brood box is fully drawn.
If your shallow ("super') frames have hoffman spacers, you could put a couple in the brood box for a week or so (maybe less) to get them started with comb-drawing. Don't leave them there too long - you just want them drawn, not used. A see-through cover board makes this easier to keep a check on. Potentially replace with another couple for the next week or so. If you don't have hoffman shallow frames, you can get "hoffman converter clips" from Thornes to temporarily facilitate this move.
To make room, remove stores-only frames for the drawing period, and put one shallow frame each side between brood and stores.
If your supers have 10-slot castellations, the wide spacing itself isn't making it as easy as possible for comb-drawing. Nowadays, I use those hoffman converter clips briefly and fit 12 frames to a box, to get them started - before moving the frames onto 10-slot castellations (and retrieving the converter clips) once they are drawn (and definitely before they are capped).
One downside to working on getting a super drawn before Autumn is that you will have to protect that drawn comb from wax moth until you can bring it into play next Spring.
4/ In Spring, stores in the brood box, restricting brooding space, increases the risk of swarming, but in Autumn (soon!) the game is to get as much stored in the brood box as possible. And in Autumn, getting more comb drawn isn't easy for the bees.
So ensure the brood box is fully drawn, ASAP.
Getting the brood box fully drawn will be easier without an empty cold super above.
As mentioned before, between brood and stores is the best place to put a frame to get it drawn. Don't add a load of foundation outside the stores frames and expect the bees to be interested in them.

5/ Sadly, they won't automatically use all the available volume "if they need it".
Oftentimes, their need for comb increases (because of brood expansion plus a sudden nectar flow) faster than the rate that the bees can make extra comb - particularly with an understrength colony. This results in backfilling the comb with nectar as the brood emerges, vacating cells. Cramping the usable brood space reduces the rate of brooding (reducing your beepower) and potentially promotes swarming. Autumn swarms do happen, even if they shouldn't - the latest that I've had a swarm callout was Sept 27th last year …

6/ The bees don't always know best. Late Sept swarming is just one example. However the beekeeper SHOULD know (even better than the bees) what is best for them - and help them to achieve it. (That is what beekeeping is about.) Right now, their prime need is a fully-drawn (and thus fully-usable) brood box.
 
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It sounds to me that colony is so small that it is not able nor occupy a new box or gather heather honey. ...6 new frames in brood box...
 
. They've put their all into drawing 6 new frames in the brood -?

What is the size of the colony.....one box full of bees...propably it needs more room during August. Super under brood box is good idea. Bees can occupy it when they are ready to expand or if they get honey.
 
If they really need more space, then remove the QE and give it to them on their own terms. If HM takes a few walks around the super you will be more likely to get workers up there as well. You can check on each inspection and if they start to draw it you can put the QE on making sure that the queen is downstairs and if you can't find her make sure there are no bees upstairs at all!

Not sure what the ivy comment at the end was about.

I hope it goes well.
 
1/ Bees don't like new. So a new box, with new frames and foundation is UNattractive.

2/ Its getting a bit late in the season for starting new boxes. Certainly for hoping to get a crop in new boxes. So don't expect too much!

When the colonies are strong (which i suspect the op colony is not) i have never found there to be any problem with them using new boxes, they seem to like them, in fact we have recently put on circa 200 brand new supers, with new frames, and only foundation, most of them are now fully drawn and being filled after only a few of days of being put on.
 
It generally takes a flow for bees to draw super frames. That means a lot of Himalayan balsam or a lot of heather. And I mean ... a lot.
 
When the colonies are strong (which i suspect the op colony is not) i have never found there to be any problem with them using new boxes, they seem to like them, in fact we have recently put on circa 200 brand new supers, with new frames, and only foundation, most of them are now fully drawn and being filled after only a few of days of being put on.

Absolutely agree that this particular colony is unlikely to be strong enough to need a super.

However, I suspect that the new supers you have been adding might not be that colony's first and only super.
My limited experience (of a fair few new beeks) is that getting a colony to take an interest in their first "attic extension" can be less than automatic if it is all brand new. And with "swarmy" bees (sourced from a donated swarm), in Spring many will choose to swarm rather than move upstairs.
HM, I have no doubt that your bees are very very much better in this regard than the average beginner's swarm! :)

Regarding bees "rather liking" new, my impression has always been that old (well-used) hive boxes made more successful bait hives than brand new ones …
 
I have found the problem to be a lack of bee numbers with some colonies, give them a frame of emerging brood and they are up there in a shot.
 
A friend of mine used the same frame size for both brood and super , he would lift a frame with uncapped stores above the Queen excluder, it worked for him.
He used to say ,"shallow supers of only for weaklings and women" he was Eastern European :)
VM


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Thank you for all the messages; one week on, miles of heather in full bloom within yards of the hive. I've just had a quick look at the super and still nothing, so I'm going to try the patient approach and do nothing! On the plus side, with the amount of stores in the brood box they should have no trouble over-wintering.

Re the ivy comment - I read somewhere that an ivy flow is good for creating wax; will see how it goes
 

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