Fondant - above or below crownboard?

[Beeka]

I know people have had success using both methods but maybe it would be helpful to hear if anyone has had any losses using one or the other.

I had decided to place the fondant under the crownboard, direct on the frames, and so I made a 3cm tall eke (doesn't sound much) but I then calculated that this gives the bees about 5 litres of extra air space to keep warm (sounds a lot).

And if the fondant is directly on the frames wouldn't this cut them off from travelling over the bee space at the top of the hive - forcing them to the cooler side walls?

I could fit a smaller amount of fondant over the feed hole in the crownboard and to check if they needed more I wouldn't need to crack open the brood chamber?

 

[REDWOOD]

To feed below crown board roll into thin strips and store between grease proof paper remove CB peel off paper and place directly on frames, this is done this way to get the food directly to the bees who may need it.

Above CB over feed hole stored in food container, If they are active enough they will use it but if in cluster with brood one side of BB you could have isolation starvation

 

[user 6228]

I know people have had success using both methods but maybe it would be helpful to hear if anyone has had any losses using one or the other.

I had decided to place the fondant under the crownboard, direct on the frames, and so I made a 3cm tall eke (doesn't sound much) but I then calculated that this gives the bees about 5 litres of extra air space to keep warm (sounds a lot).

And if the fondant is directly on the frames wouldn't this cut them off from travelling over the bee space at the top of the hive - forcing them to the cooler side walls?

I could fit a smaller amount of fondant over the feed hole in the crownboard and to check if they needed more I wouldn't need to crack open the brood chamber?

5 litres of air has very little heat capacity so the volume doesn't make much difference. However you have added 3x46x4 sqcms of surface area at the hottest part of the hive and moved that hot area 3cms away from the comb and any brood on it.
It could be worse, you could be using 100mm ekes like some of mine.

 

[Suzi Q]

I fed over the feeder hole in a crownboard on a couple of hives last year, 2.5kg of fondant with a slit cut into the pkt. Then an eke filled with flexible insulation, silvery bubblewrap stuff to cover the fondant. I reckon there is no appreciable heat loss since the fondant is blocking off any heat escaping from the hole. It works, and is one method of applying fondant, there are other ways! I had no losses last winter.

 

[merlin65]

Feed mine over the feed hole, no losses.

 

[drstitson]

"I then calculated that this gives the bees about 5 litres of extra air space to keep warm (sounds a lot). "

NOT if the intention is to fill the eke with fondant - which is what i do if and when i need to use this approach.

1. eke only fitted if fondant deemed needed.
2. 4-6kg chunk of fondant rolled out to correct thickness.

 

[Tom Bick]

I fed over the feeder hole in a crownboard on a couple of hives last year, 2.5kg of fondant with a slit cut into the pkt. Then an eke filled with flexible insulation, silvery bubblewrap stuff to cover the fondant. I reckon there is no appreciable heat loss since the fondant is blocking off any heat escaping from the hole. It works, and is one method of applying fondant, there are other ways! I had no losses last winter.

I do similar with the fondant encased in a 2” block of insulation with a hole to take the fondant. It works well but I would say only comes into its own in the spring and perhaps no great help in the dead of winter. But then they should have plenty of stores for that period.

 

[Walrus]

For me, feeding fondant in late winter/early spring is for an emergency situation when the bees have used up their stores but it is still too early for foraging. The greatest need is to ensure the soon to be starving bees get food as quickly and easily as possible, so for me it goes on top of the frames, right where the bees are.

Last year I fed fondant on light hives so this year I'm trying to get them heavier before daytime temperatures fail to reach 12 degrees Celsius (ish).

Many experienced beeks do the "above the feeding board" method successfully, however.

 

[itma]

I'm in the below the coverboard school.

Long strips, end to end of the hive (right angles to the frames).

Whatever frames they happen to be on, I'd like the fondant to be as close as possible to the cluster, so they can most easily move to contact it.
Yes, when gaps appear, add more to restore the situation.

A clear coverboard helps.

 

[masterBK]

Fondant is easier to roll out if placed in a poly feezer bag and popped into microwave for 20 to 30 secs to soften.

 

[For want of a better word]

Roll the fondant onto the top of a wire queen excluder and put that on top of frames, fondant side up. Use a stock thin9mm eke to give bee space.
Not found any problems in BHS pollyhives with a decent thick roof, or with wood National hives with 100mm of Kingspan under the roof (OMF)
You can easily get 2kg of fondant on that way... with FEEDBEE added for spring build up
Agree that colonies should be adequately provided with stores before winter sets in.

Solid floors... perhaps use an old Chinese takeaway carton with a bit of fondant in it placed over feed hole in crownboard.... perhaps put the matchsticks under the carton corners to allow for good ventilation?

 

[Beeka]

Thanks, some more ideas to mull over, it still seems about 50/50!


derekm - are you using frame feeders but still have an eke on or a different method for each hive?

drstitson - "NOT if the intention is to fill the eke with fondant"...

...BUT they will create a space eventually. I am estimating they have about 20kgs of stores so I want to have my plan of action in place before the severe weather.

icanhopit - I was considering using a queen excluder but I only have a wire one and didn't want to put any metal above the cluster over winter, it's just asking for more condensation?

 

[drstitson]

"I am estimating they have about 20kgs of stores so I want to have my plan of action in place before the severe weather."

If they really have 20kg of stores then they'll be fine.

 

[Pete D]

So here's another straight on top of the frames method.

I got a couple of rolls of 'space blanket' insulation from B &Q, cut this into hive size pieces and stuffed them into old pillow cases (wife made me some out of old sheets), I got nine out of each roll & £12 a roll on offer.
I then put an empty super on top of the crown board (no holes or covered) and stuff my insulating pillow into it, it compresses down well but recovers its shape once I stick the roof on.
If fondant is required I whip off the super, the pillow and crown board, put the fondant on top of the frames above the cluster, fit the super, squeeze the pillow in, fit the crown board and roof.
A simple check to see if they need anymore is to lift one corner of the pillow to have a peek.
I find that the heat kept in by the pillow helps keep the fondant moist.

A load of faffing about I am sure but works for me and my bees.
Pillows squash down into a couple of bin bags and live in garage roof.

So back to original question............ straight on to the top bars above the bees.

 

[For want of a better word]

icanhopit - I was considering using a queen excluder but I only have a wire one and didn't want to put any metal above the cluster over winter, it's just asking for more condensation?


Not if the hive is well insulated... plus... although I have read and reread The Idiots Guide to Physics...it seems the sugar tends to by hydroscopic and any free water is mopped up by it.
Not sure what happens above 1000meters... possibly vapour density would change with the lowered pressure, reducing the dew point?
Soggy fondant?

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

"I then calculated that this gives the bees about 5 litres of extra air space to keep warm (sounds a lot). "

NOT if the intention is to fill the eke with fondant - which is what i do if and when i need to use this approach.

1. eke only fitted if fondant deemed needed.
2. 4-6kg chunk of fondant rolled out to correct thickness.

WARM fondant!!!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I got a couple of rolls of 'space blanket' insulation from B &Q, cut this into hive size pieces and stuffed them into old pillow cases (wife made me some out of old sheets),

Why didn't you get her to make some out of err......... old pillow cases?

 

[Pete D]

Why didn't you get her to make some out of err......... old pillow cases?

DOH....................cos I needed 30 and we dont get through pillow cases that quickly, however it took a hour of cutting out and running them up through her nice new sewing machiney thing, getting about 4 out of each sheet.

She likes to be involved with the beekeeping........................
looked at her CV recently when she was applying for a different job and it said 'helping my husband with his beekeeping hobby', just keeping her honest

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

DOH

luckily I've got quite a bit of kingspan lying around!!

She likes to be involved with the beekeeping........................

I wish mine would, funnily enough i thought it was her who first mentioned the idea!!

 

[Headnavigator]

I do similar with the fondant encased in a 2” block of insulation with a hole to take the fondant. It works well but I would say only comes into its own in the spring and perhaps no great help in the dead of winter. But then they should have plenty of stores for that period.

Similar: 2 layers of kingspan in an eke over each hive, with a cut-out in the lower layer to fit a clear plastic takeaway food box. I put the fondant in the food-box and then into a poly bag, with a cross cut in the top centre of the poly bag. (chuck the lid away).
Invert this over the feed hole in the kingspan cut-out, with the second layer on top. Any time I want to check if they're OK for feed I can remove the roof and top layer of kingspan and see the bottom of the upside-down box without chilling the bees at all. If (when) they need more one can see that they are in the box and how much is left. Swift and easy to give them an exchange box if they ever need it.